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Sales Departments, Leads & Marketing
Posted By: Jo Masterson on 11/28/2006 6:57 PM (CST) 1000 Points
Seems like there is often a discrepancy between marketing and sales when it comes to leads....

1. Sales people want more "qualified or warm" leads to follow up with, and don't want to waste time on bad leads.

2. Marketing wants the Sales Dept to follow up better on the leads they have and to spend more time prospecting.

3. Management wants both to get busy, generate leads and convert them to sales... without whining !

I am looking for all the brilliant ideas available on ways to have a coordinated effort that works. What is your experience... what works best... who does what? We have a great team... but not always great teamwork.

This question is both for my own knowledge/use, and for general discussion... so share your insight on working with the sales department.

Thanks,
Jo

Posted by: mbarber Member Response
11/28/2006 7:02 PM (CST)
Gidday Jo

You might want to cntact Hugh at Mathmarketing.com because he recently released a newsletter discussing this very question

MPB :-)
 
Posted by: wnelson Accepted Answer
11/28/2006 7:40 PM (CST)
Jo,

I have a different set of roles and responsibilities when it comes to sales and marketing than the argument you describe would imply. Marketing "aims" sales toward the right set of customers to achieve the corporate strategy. In B2B, this includes companies in a priority down to the right functions within the corporate. In B2C - it's a detailed description of the prospects and where to find them. In both cases it also involves detailed descriptions of motivations, influencers (words and images), and everything else about the people to whom sales would sell that would support that process. Marketing then provides collateral material to support the sale and a portfolio of activities to drive brand recognition, educate the prospects on the company and products and/or services and how they satisfy the needs of the customers better than the competitive solutions. Marketing also helps with sales scripts and training of the sales team.

Marketing acquires the data on the market and customers via secondary data and primary data. Sales is intimately involved with any gathering of primary data. Sales also reviews the marketing strategy and enters into a healthy give and take discussion and assists in the validation process. When the process is done, marketing and sales management form a consensus on the plan and routinely review it as time goes on to make sure it's still right with the company and environment.

Now, notice that NOWHERE did I mention that marketing provides leads - warm or otherwise. This is part of the sales process. If the leads are from telemarketing, then it's sales who controls that. It's it's leads from trade shows, then sales is part of the trade show - both setting up the trade show process and goals and manning the booth. They run down the leads. If it's from the website, sales buys into the website offer that generates the leads and inside sales/outside sales follow them up. Marketing can be measured on the number of leads resulting from marketing activities and also on the quality of the leads coming in, however, since these attributes of the marketing effort. And marketing is responsible for hitting the goals set out via the process (goals made jointly with sales).

The sticky part of this description is that IF marketing is not coordinated between product lines, sales may receive conflicting messages and a drain of sales resources. This usually results in sales picking the best and easiest "marketing organization" with whom to work. The other departments end up badmouthing the sales team and vise versa.

The other caution in this happy world I describe is that the top sales guy and the top marketing guy have to be a team and work together and demand their teams work together.

I hope this helps.

Wayde
 
Posted by: Stephen Denny Accepted Answer
11/28/2006 7:46 PM (CST)
The best way to bridge this gap is to close it.

Marketing (in a B2B world -- you don't have leads in a B2C world; that's the demand your channel fulfills) generates leads for sales to close. The better the leads, the happier everyone is. The best way to do this is to qualify them early on in your process.

Don't turn over a bucket of business cards from a trade show to the sales admin. Capture the leads at your trade show (or webinar, or newsletter, or direct mail campaign/white paper download, roadshow, etc.) and ensure you've got heavy qualifiers built in to the capture process.

Get your sales team's input and agreement on what "qualified" means -- what budget does your lead have this year, who makes the decision, is the person at the show a decision maker/influencer/nobody, have they looked at yours/competitive product already, have they made a decision to buy but are still evaluating alternatives, etc.

Once both of you have an agreement, build your lead generation and capture process together.

Then, accept the accolades and congratulations that are rightfully yours.

Good luck!
 
Posted by: W.M.M.A. Member Response
11/28/2006 7:58 PM (CST)
I need to go on record and state that Wayde is a brilliant marketer. One further, he is a great teacher. I believe that this question and response should be saved and provided to every student/person that comes into the forum and asks the question: "What's the difference between marketing and sales." Or, however the question is put.

In my opinion...This is the definitive response. What makes it so, is that it opens the door for further discussion, in every paragraph.

The question and response should go down in the history of this site. Jo - Wayde...well stated, on both sides.

Congratulations to you both.

Randall
WMMA
 
Posted by: bat Member Response
11/28/2006 8:00 PM (CST)
Hi Jo,
You may want to try visiting www.zigzagmarketing.com. In the past, I've found helpful literature to download there on this and other relevant topics

Cheers,
bat
 
Posted by: ASVP/ChrisB Member Response
11/28/2006 8:09 PM (CST)
I must endorse Marcus' reference to Hugh at Mathmarketing.

In a nutshell, what you (and most sales organisations) need is closely integrated Funnel Management.

To do that you need to embed processes into the business culture to ensure the sales funnel or pipeline gets properly managed.

Sometimes that means implementing a technology based system to help embed the process.

Examples:

http://www.strategymix.com.au
http://www.switched-on.com.au (their Runway system).

Hope that helps.
 
Posted by: Jo Masterson Author Response
11/28/2006 9:15 PM (CST)
Great responses as always!

Thanks for the thoughtful input. I seem to have a gap between theory and reality, especially at a small company where the lines are often blurred... often by necessity. It is interesting to read the differences of opinions even here among experts. Any one else have real life examples of what works.. or doesn't?

Thanks,
Jo

PS I plan to divide points between the 5 or so suggestions that are most useful to me... but I truly value all insights.
 
Posted by: KathySmithFilms* Accepted Answer
11/29/2006 3:47 AM (CST)
This is a great post Jo...very essential to see the difference and how the two different departments can help the entire organization.

Anyone engaged in marketing or preparing the materials for marketing should know the following items listed. These are what a marketing person, or anyone connected with development of marketing uses to create the products related to marketing such as fliers, ads, info-sheets, material for salesmen, posters, websites, etc.:

1. Survey for the public and then survey that public with regard to any product.
2. Do your homework. (Study the market, competitors, field, publics, etc.)
3. Be fully familiar with the propaganda line of PR or public image your company is currently following.
4. Know your product.
5. Establish and use a positioning for every product.
6. Impinge! (Applies to graphic design, campaign ideas, anything else.)
7. Be alive! (Don't compose dead downgrades.)
8. Direct people's attention. (This applies to graphic design, wording of ads, placement of ads, color choices, ideas, capers and stunts.)
9. Make material aesthetic. (Know how to use geometric design, color wheels, color depth, perception, layout, etc.)
10. Be clean, clear-cut, comprehensible. (Don't be complex and muddy.)
11. Use come-on. (In advertising you never tell all you know, just tell people how they can get it or find it.)
12. Create want from the public!
13. Be professional in anything you do.

From those basics the to sales.

My concept of selling is caring about who is in front of you to have whatever service or product you are closing and using sales closing tools as well as posters, slides, flyers, ads or tools gotten from marketing department.

Hope this helps too.
Kathy
 
Posted by: Frank Hurtte Accepted Answer
11/29/2006 9:10 AM (CST)
It is discussions like this that justify the 40 minutes or so a day I spend reading this forum. Wayde and Kathy both posted some great thoughts...

From the level of the man on the street, I have seen a couple of discussions that actually worked to solve this discussion (running gunbattle between sales and marketing folks).

Here is what we did...
1) put a metric on how much the leads cost. what we found was that leads generated from trade press media cost $105 dollars each.
2) talk about what could be improved about the lead.
3) asked the question, how much would it cost us if we got just a little more information $110/lead? $150/lead? etc.
4) sat down with sales and said, do you know how you could find "real new customers" for less money?
5) ended up with a program that paid distributor sales people for bringing our people into an account that we hadnt been in before...

Great conversation, great exercise... and the metrics (and data) changed the whole tone of the relationship.
 
Posted by: Guni Accepted Answer
11/29/2006 10:07 AM (CST)
Hello everyone,
I, too, love this discussion as it seems to be a very critical point in the relationship between marketing and sales. I was on both sides, and I am now on the marketing side in our organization.
We had the very same issue - leads were never enough and never good enough for sales, whereas for marketing leads were never followed up by sales as they should be.

We have improved our situation by (how Frank says) implementing some metrics. Here are some points that helped us:
- We put a goal behind each marketing activity, usually agreed between sales & marketing (that creates a joint responsibility)
- We installed a lead tracker that lists all leads marketing brings to the organization and where they come from (and since then there was no arguing anymore that there are not enough leads)
- Each sales person has to make a certain number of phone calls per week

Not every lead can be a sales (overwise sales people would be ordertakers). There is a funnel: a certain number of leads lead to a lower number of opportunitites that lead to a lower number of sales. We have a metrics for all three: leads, opportunities, sales.

Marketing can only be responsible for the sale if it has the authority / responsibility for the entire process. On the other hand we have to care about what is happening with our leads. Oftentimes this interface is difficult to organize, therefore it is extremely important that Sales Management and Marketing Management are on the same page and represent each other.

I discuss most of my marketing activities and results with my colleague (sales manager) and vice versa. This communciation is very important and helps us bridging the gap, most of the times.

Guni
 
Posted by: Jo Masterson Author Response
11/29/2006 12:52 PM (CST)
Awesome:
Thanks for the real life examples. I will leave this open another day or two to see what others have to say... Maybe someone whats to put on a seminar on this subject? ;-)
Jo
 
Posted by: darcy.moen Accepted Answer
11/29/2006 5:59 PM (CST)
Since when does EVERY person your advertising, marketing or sales AUTOMATICALLY become a sales lead?

Do fishermen measure their catch by the numer of fish in the sea, or do they measure their catch by the number in their net, or the number of fish that make it to the hold, or the number of fish delivered to the market?

There is a certain amound of 'loss' at each point along the way, and you lose a lead or a customer the same way. While I like the idea of the sales process being a funnel, I fundamentally disagree that everyone who slips into the funnel is expected to be processed through to the bottom. Like fisherman, you lose a few who escape the net, and you lose a few on the way to the hold. Some fish go bad on the dock, and not every fish makes it to market.

Marketing and Sales may well be two different departments, but they have simliar responsibilities. While marketing works to fill the funnel, sales is expected to process the sale to closing. Both should be working to walk the customer to closing. At what point exactly does marketing pass the customer to sales for closing? Is there a tipping point or hand off point? Like has been said...you have a gap in responsibilities...and you have two departments pointing fingers at each other. Work to close the gap, define roles and responsibilities, and get those two departments to realize they need to overlap and work together. When one falls down, the other should fill in to cover. If both pull back....may as well quit taking the boat out of the harbor.

We all wish we could catch a fish with each cast of the net. Its a fact of life that not every cast ends up in a fish, let alone a big tuna...tell sales to get used to it. If they insist on perfect leads that always end in a sale, make them accountable for every fish that doesn't make it to the table. Fair is fair, right? oh wait, I bet Sales has all kinds of excuses for less than perfection too.

If it was easy, we'd all be doing it.

Darcy Moen
Customer Loyalty Network
 
Posted by: mgoodman Member Response
11/29/2006 6:00 PM (CST)
Which of my kids is at fault when they're bickering and taunting each other?

When Marketing and Sales point the finger at each other, they're both wrong and need to be re-directed. They should think of themselves as having a common objective and being one team. If they don't then it's the coach's fault.

If you don't have a VP-Sales & Marketing, then you're inviting Sales and Marketing to each be autonomous. If you have a VP-Sales & Marketing then it's his/her job to get them working and thinking as a team. Who does what with a new lead is a function of who is better at doing whatever needs to be done.

Conceptually, Sales is one of the important elements of the Marketing Mix -- the one that interfaces with the customer. To separate it out and make it a "different" function from Marketing is to not understand the real relationship between them. Sales is part of Marketing.

I'm not totally naive. I understand the issue. But I have always felt that a strong leader can get Marketing and Sales working together as a single team, and can re-train anyone who doesn't "get it" with some skilled coaching.
 
Posted by: michael Accepted Answer
11/29/2006 6:04 PM (CST)
Jo,

Personally (and professionally) I believe sales has to pick up the slack if marketing isn't doing the job. This comes from many years in sales so I'm not pointing fingers without knowing where it's pointing.

The "I need warmer leads" complaint falls on deaf ears to me. We did some work for an international company that refused to change it's marketing policy...even when we convinced them the changes would help. (I usually avoid customers like that!) They could easily have made simple changes that would have helped the sales people. BUT sales people are not allowed to blame lack of success on someone else. (my opinion)

I don't think the greatest marketing dept will ever be able to replace a good sales force but I do believe a great sales force can eliminate the need for an in-house marketing department.

Just rambling.......

Michael
 
Posted by: Frank Hurtte Member Response
11/29/2006 8:46 PM (CST)
This has been a great discussion.. Darcie, I am leading a strategic discussion tomorrow and I plan to blatantly "rip off" your masterful story about all the fishes in the sea....

Here is one other little turd of an idea I thought I would throw out...
A million years ago, when I was in college I sold really nice leather bound books. Since we were all independant contractors, we had our choice of leads that we could purchase.. yep, we could pay either 15, 7, 5, 3 or 2 dollars for leads. The price depended on where they came from... It seems like the most expensive came from people who were members of a buyers group who had indicated they wanted to see a sample. Everyone knew the 15 dollar leads resulted in a sale about half the time. The 2 dollar leads were nearly worthless and when a big batch of them built up, the regional manager used to offer them for free. Which may have been too much money. The point is, when money actually changed hands the leads were treated with the greatest respect.
 
Posted by: telemoxie Member Response
11/30/2006 5:23 AM (CST)
I've spent over ten years focused primarily on this one issue.

Over fifteen years ago, I started a business focused exclusively on the long term cultivation of opportunities, and the handoff from marketing to sales. I've discussed the issue with well over a thousand people, and have implemented over 100 programs.

The short answer is that the best sort of solution for you will depend on the level of competition you face, your profit margins, the organization of your sales team and channel, the phase of your offering in the "product life cycle", your position and the level of support you have from top management, and other issues.

And so, as always, if you provide LOTS more details, we can be much more helpful.

I'm headed out the door without a lot of time to read this post in depth or to summarize fifteen years of experience in this little response... since I'm not offering specific advice please don't award me points here, but feel free to contact me offline. If you provide more details and leave this question open a bit longer, I'll check back this evening.
 
Posted by: telemoxie Accepted Answer
11/30/2006 6:54 AM (CST)
Sorry to be hasty before...

... for general advice from myself and others, check out:
http://www.marketingprofs.com/ea/qst_question.asp?qstid=15110

For specific advice, we need more info, e.g.:

- Do you sell to businesses, consumers, or the Government?

- Do you sell hardware, software, services?

- How unique or innovative is your product? How many competitors do you have?

- What country are you in? Do you sell regionally, nationally, internationally?

- If you sell thru employees - are they straight commission, or base plus commission? Do you sell thru agents? Channel partners? Resellers?

- Do you have a centralized CRM system?

- is your offering high margin (in which case you want maximum market penetration) or is your offering low margin (in which you need max ROI on marketing).

- How is the quality of your marketing materials?

- Are you a manufacturer, or a reseller? If a manufacturer, do you offer marketing coop dollars? If a reseller, do you have access to these funds?

- How long is your sales cycle?

- What existing "empires" are in place? For example, do you have a telesales department or a "pre-sales" department which needs to be kept busy?

- Most important - what has been tried before, which failed (and why). Very likely, someone tried to do something intelligent in the past, but the plug was pulled too early. This time, will management commit the time and resources necessary?

etc., etc. etc. Lots of details. Per my previous post, I've worked this problem for many companies in many industries in many situations, and would be glad to talk with you outside calling hours. Click my profile to the right for my contact info.
 
Posted by: Jo Masterson Author Response
11/30/2006 12:49 PM (CST)
Telemoxie.

Thanks for your responses. Here are some answers to your questions.

- We are a small B2B software company that sells Service Management Software (CRM, work order management, dispatch…) to field service business such as HVAC, Telecom & IT install and service business...

- We sell software (that we developed) and the Tech-support contracts.

- We are located in the Seattle, WA (USA) area. And sell mostly in the US & Canada.

- The company was started in 1989 and there are a few competitors, we have the best QuickBooks integration.

- Competitive advantage: Our software works very well with QuickBooks

- We have two sales people who could handle twice the volume of prospects, I need more leads for them. They are paid base + commission. At this point … sales mostly follows up with people who call in or fill out our demo/info request form online. (No outbound prospecting)

- Somewhere in the past… someone tried cold call with poor results. We have just attended our first “show” with some results. Our Web site is our main marketing “collateral” we email info on request. www.high5software.com We have a good solid product, but are working to simplify the message used for marketing.

My goals for marketing are to educate businesses that this software solution exists, and get them to talk to our sales people and or attend a demo via webinar/go to meeting.

Looking forward to your insight.
Jo
 
Posted by: telemoxie Member Response
11/30/2006 2:26 PM (CST)
Thanks for the details.

If I were in your situation, I would try something like renting some lists and doing some "Value based" direct mail (e.g. free copy of a book, or white paper, or something) to generate more leads for the sales team.

I'd also ramp up the trade show presence (even if you don't exhibit, there are ways to get leads, e.g. see
http://www.marketingprofs.com/ea/qst_question.asp?qstid=3184

My specialty is cold-calling (integrated with the long-term cultivation of technical opportunities), which I would not recommend in your situation... but I think you are right on track in trying to help fill the pipeline, and there are folks on this forum who can help with the direct mail, SEO, pay per click, and so forth. Best of luck.
 
Posted by: Jo Masterson Author Response
11/30/2006 2:37 PM (CST)
telemoxie,

Thanks for the input... can you tell me why you would not recommend prospecting/cold calling? We know what type and size businesses are our best fit, our biggest competitor calls on these businesses (as well as our clients.)

Thanks,
Jo
 
Posted by: W.M.M.A. Accepted Answer
11/30/2006 2:47 PM (CST)
I'd like to say, to support telemoxie, the issue I see with cold-calling is that in general, people do not understand what IT solutions, integration...and, you're selling software. People do not, and will not understand your USP, on the telephone. Software is to be seen, in demo's.

I just had a similar discussion with one of my clients, this morning. I would also recommend trade-show ramp up, and implement a drip-marketing campaign to your targeted lists (which you could purchase), as recommended.

From your drip campaign, sales team follow-through can ramp up and (because you have made intial contact via drip-campaign), may be made easier, since you have developed some name recognition.

Not to respond for telemoxie, but if he implemented a cold-calling program, it would extremely more difficult, because a) he would need to be educated about your systems/services, and b) would need to be well-versed in educating your target market. The problem? Cold-educating a marketplace that has not been qualified in relation to interest and capability to utilize.

A bit more for you to digest.

Randall
WMMA
 
Posted by: W.M.M.A. Member Response
11/30/2006 2:51 PM (CST)
Additionally...to respond to the marketing/sales discussion...read the information listed in "Marketing Job", under the title: "Marketing Director" in the upper right-hand corner of this page.

It clearly distinguishes the differentiation between the two jon descriptions.

Randall
WMMA
 
Posted by: telemoxie Accepted Answer
11/30/2006 3:22 PM (CST)
I would not cold call because there is no need to do it. Naturally I'm shooting a bit from the hip here, but I'm guessing that decisions would be made by the owner of the HVAC or other service firm - and their contact info is easily and inexpensively obtainable via www.goleads.com and www.zapdata.com and infousa and dozens of other sources.

A long term "educational" approach by phone would not be well received by the folks who will be answering the phone... a "drip marketing" campaign (e.g. series of postcards and letters) coordinated with follow-up of inquiries by your sales staff will get you where you need to go. Your major challenge will be convincing your CEO to spend the money for a first class, sustained campaign.
 
Posted by: Jo Masterson Author Response
11/30/2006 3:31 PM (CST)
Thanks so much for all your help.

I really do agree on cold calling, but am just struggling with how to create more leads / prospects... with a very tight budget. I was trying to use what we have (time) and conserve what we don’t (marketing money.)

Thanks all - this is such a valuable resource! I love Marketing Profs
Jo


PS. I will close this great discussion, but welcome additional input.
 
Posted by: wnelson Member Response
11/30/2006 3:52 PM (CST)
Jo,

With respect to the "SHOW" results, with the exception of B3C businesses, trade shows almost never (in my experience and in asking others) yield any GOOD leads! The strategy for a trade show is to identify WHO is going to be there from your customer base and set up detailed meetings with them - maybe linking their management with your management...and at worst, provide your KEY customers with a special event - a party/happy hours, dinner - maintain a relationship. In my cynical opinion, at trade shows, you get tire kickers, students, or people who want to learn about the industry but don't intend to buy anything. And SO very rarely does any one who you don't already know show up at the show. Maybe once in every hundred or two attendees is it someone new who is a qualified prospect. But, you show up to meet with customers you want to meet with ON PURPOSE (by setting up specific meetings or events - versus waiting on the floor for them to stumble in) and because you'd be conspicuously absent if you weren't there (like, "Hey, are THEY still in business??").

As far as telemarketing, take ANY one-shot marketing activity, and you're throwing away money! Some small business owners tell me they are going to put an ad in the newspaper (an isolated ad) and I advise them to give me the $300 they would spend for the ad and I will tell my neighbor about them - the effectiveness would be the same. So if you do telemarketing ONLY, then, hey, send my friend Dave (telemoxie) three crisp thousand dollar bills and let him stand in a crowded mall and shout your company name as loud as he can. Again, your results will be the same.

Marketing activities have to be integrated around a firm strategy. This strategy is built by marketing and marketing seeks buy-in from sales - and every other function. And the organization implements it.

While this all sounds like a diatribe of theory, this has been my experience in a couple of the eight or so Fortune 500 companies for which I have worked (not all of them). And I see it as workable with most of my smaller clients I have now.

Wayde
 
Posted by: Jo Masterson Author Response
11/30/2006 4:41 PM (CST)
Wayde,
I keep suggesting a multi pronged, multi touch approach that is consistent over time. The reality of what we have money and time to do limits us, but I appreciate the reminder to get buy in. I need to remember to market the plan internally first! ( Another great discussion!)
Thanks,
Jo
 
Posted by: Frank Hurtte Member Response
11/30/2006 8:03 PM (CST)
Great Discussion folks... this is my favorite part of MarketingProfs... and obviously, we all benefit.

Wayde, I disagree about the Trade Show thing. There are still... Just a few... Trade Shows that fetch results.
I work the Industrial and Automation sector.. and we are all Engineering Nerd types...

Jo... I have a couple of very specific suggestions to help you. I will be out of the office Friday .. but back next week.. Reach me via my profile and I may be able to point you in a couple of directions that will result in some real live honest to goodness LEADS...

Frank
 
Posted by: wnelson Member Response
11/30/2006 8:43 PM (CST)
Frank,

Been there, done that! been in automation as well as semiconductors. What I said specifically was "Maybe once in every hundred or two attendees is it someone new who is a qualified prospect." And As I think more about the big trade show attendance - like Hanover Fair, it's more like one qualified lead in 50,000 attendees. It's an expensive way to get a couple dozen leads. The point I was making was that if a trade show is organized right, it can be effective in high quality meetings with the people you want to meet or in solidifying relationships with existing customers. The investment is worth it from this perspective.

Wayde
 
Posted by: W.M.M.A. Member Response
11/30/2006 11:29 PM (CST)
You're right, Wayde. It must be worked right. We developed a trade show program years ago...that begins a year before the show, and goes 6 months after. Prepare, prepare, prepare.

Don't stand around, set appointments...follow-up...follow-through.

Good Night to most.
G'day to the mates in Australia, New Zealand, Hawaii.

Randall
 


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