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For Grammar Pedants: Do We Comply With Or To?
Posted By: Michele on 1/17/2005 2:21 PM (CST) 500 Points
In the context of 'companies need to comply with the Bill' - would we say compliance with or compliance to?

Online dictionary search not really helpful as two sources opinions diverge.

Def 1: Acting according to certain accepted standards
Def 2: The act of complying with a wish, request, or demand

I have a suspicion that the usage may be influenced by the nature of what you are complying with / to.

Comply to a request
Comply with government's policies.

Any thoughts?
Michele

Posted by: Deremiah *CPE Accepted Answer
1/17/2005 2:42 PM (CST)
Michele,

when I spent time in the accounting industry as an accountant we were always in "compliance with" the general rules of good accounting principles. I will see if I can provide you with some supportive references along this line.

Your Servant, Deremiah, *CPE
 
Posted by: Inbox_Interactive Accepted Answer
1/17/2005 2:51 PM (CST)
Hi, Michele -

I was not immediately able to find anything rock solid on this. However, I think the more common usage is "comply with," although I have definitely seen "comply to" used as well (not that this makes it correct!).

As you know, though, if you're writing "copy," you probably have the license to use whichver sounds better, even if it turns out to be less than perfect according to grammarians.

Looking forward to other replies.

Paul
 
Posted by: Deremiah *CPE Accepted Answer
1/17/2005 2:56 PM (CST)
Michele,

when I did a search on Google searching for the specific words below the "compliance with" search is definitely used more than the "compliance to".

1,140,000 "Compliance to"

17,000,000 "Compliance with"

You would expect a former bean counter (lol) to use a "generally accepted practice" or "Best practice" type of approach to solving this problem wouldn't you. Very visually analytical type of approach if I have to say so myself. Sorry for being so predictable when most of the time I tend to be very intuitive. I think I'm going to go back to counting the bristles on my toothbrush. Take care.

Deremiah
 
Posted by: Deremiah *CPE Member Response
1/17/2005 3:07 PM (CST)
Michele,

Sarbanes-Oxley is one of the most highly discussed subjects these days and I think this organizations communication on the subject might give some insight as to using the "With" versus the "to". Karl Nagel is a compliance firm.

http://www.karlnagel.com/displaysection.php?level=2&pub_id=Sarbanes-Oxley&c...

You can read this document online to glean from the usage and the tone. They use "with" greatly throught the document. It appears in other readings I have come across that the word "compliance to" is used when dealing with reconciling such as "we are reconciling in compliance to". I hope this helps. If there is anything I can do further just put me on a mission. I am not working today and it's about 2:14 pm. See ya.

Deremiah
 
Posted by: Deremiah *CPE Member Response
1/17/2005 3:09 PM (CST)
"throught" is a typ-o should be "through out" or could be future shorthand on the word. :-)
 
Posted by: D4Demand Accepted Answer
1/17/2005 3:39 PM (CST)
Comply "with"

Never Comply to.
 
Posted by: Frances* Accepted Answer
1/17/2005 3:43 PM (CST)
It's 'comply with' but 'conform to'.

So to me, it would follow that 'compliance with' is correct.

But then again, 1,140,000 people can't be wrong. Or can they?

ps. Deremiah, I love 'throught' and vote for it to be part of the English lexicon!
 
Posted by: Stokefire* Accepted Answer
1/17/2005 4:35 PM (CST)
Found this blurb online that confirms findings:

Mrs. Bluezette's Grammar Corner
... Idioms are combinations of words that follow no particular grammar rules ... Here are
some other idioms that Mrs. B recommends you ... comply with, not comply "to". ...
www.newsblues.com/grammar.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

I was unable to find the actual citation since it was found in a link to the referenced page - but the critical bit about "comply with, not comply "to" " is there.

I think you have your answer!

Best,

Tate
 
Posted by: Deremiah *CPE Member Response
1/17/2005 5:03 PM (CST)
Thanks FRANCES,

Now if you and I can convert one person that converts one person we can impact the whole world before the week is out. Thanks for your Vote. So do we have any other voters for "throught". Frances I noticed you were from South Africa...that's a great place to be. Well it looks like we are getting enough supportive information to back-up the reason why 17 million people use "comply with". Have a great day.

Your Servant, Deremiah, *CPE
 
Posted by: Ann H. Accepted Answer
1/17/2005 5:19 PM (CST)
You know I had to add my two cents here in compliance with my job as the MarketingProfs newsletter/site editor! : )

This grammar rule is less like a rule...like many things in life, it's more of a "feel...." You gotta see which one works in any given situation.

Generally, I'd use "compliance with" and "comply with." But I'd use "comply to" in some situations...if it sounded or felt better. In other words, I'd use "comply to" if I felt like I needed to comply to a certain style of writing.

And I also agree with Paul. I'm never one to play hard by the grammar rules if it makes for awkward or less colorful copy. I'd rather publish copy with a little life.

Ann Handley
 
Posted by: Deremiah *CPE Member Response
1/17/2005 5:40 PM (CST)
Ann,

then me and you could rapp. That's the rule I generally follow in most all cases. If it sounds good, rolls off of my tongue like a song from "The Sound of Music" then I go with it. Great input from our Newsletter Site Editor...we've just got great people all over this site. Thanks Ann.
 
Posted by: W.M.M.A. Accepted Answer
1/17/2005 9:14 PM (CST)
Lots of D.O.T. compliance experience. All companies were in compliance with...

My hand is up for throught, "D"

Example: We looked throught the warehouse, and found no kippers. Eh?

Randall
wMMA
 
Posted by: Deremiah *CPE Member Response
1/18/2005 12:23 AM (CST)
By Randall, I think you've Got IT!

Throught the warehouse.
 
Posted by: ASVP/ChrisB Accepted Answer
1/18/2005 1:16 AM (CST)
Oh, goody, at last a question for grammar pedants!

Comply or Compliance takes the Ablative case as far as I am concerned. Therefore. it must be Comply with (by/with/from = Ablative prepositions).

Conform on the other hand seems to take the Dative case. (To/for).

See, 5 years of studying Latin pays off after all!

Cheers

Chris
 
Posted by: SRyan ;] Accepted Answer
1/18/2005 3:27 AM (CST)
A Latin student, Chris? Same here. Such a nerd in high school, in fact, that one year I got to be Miss Saturnalia.

Toga!

And yes, I comply with most grammatical rules. At least, I do when I'm not breaking them.

Shelley ;]
 
Posted by: POP Boss* Accepted Answer
1/18/2005 4:37 AM (CST)
Hi

Oxford dictionaries specifies that comply is often used as comply with (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/comply?view=uk)

Examples illustrating Comply in the Cambridge dictionary use With (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=15695&dict=CALD)

Cambridge American English dictionary goes along the same line and also provides an example using Compliance With (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=comply*1+0&dict=A)

Hope this makes it clear

Nico
 
Posted by: Ricky Accepted Answer
1/18/2005 5:20 AM (CST)
Bravo to all who voted for "compliance with".

Just for fun, here's another grammar error I'm always finding and correcting: centers around. For example: "The presentation centers around our marketing activities."

It should always be "centers on". (Because the center of something is always on a point, not around a point).
 
Posted by: Deremiah *CPE Member Response
1/18/2005 6:56 AM (CST)
Well Shelley I always did say you were *Pretty Smart (do I get any points for that lol).

Also I'm very glad that numerically it proves out why over 17 Mil would use Comply With. Thanks also Chris and Nico you guys are very smart too!

Deremiah
 
Posted by: Ann H. Moderator Response
1/18/2005 7:16 AM (CST)
Shelley --

I am so glad to hear that Latin did pay off -- eventually. Can't wait to tell my 13-year-old, who is struggling with his first year of it and applying the question central to any 13-year-old, "Yeah...but why do I CARE??"

I'll be sure to tell him he has a bright (if limited) future as a Forum Expert!

Cheers from Boston --

Ann
 
Posted by: Jett* Accepted Answer
1/18/2005 11:47 AM (CST)
compliance with. for sure is I since me good very in speaking the language of Englishes people.

I knows these things. Yous should taked my advertise....really.

Lucky Good things to you!
 
Posted by: Stokefire* Accepted Answer
1/18/2005 1:25 PM (CST)
Wait wait wait! If you completely ignor grammar... and punctuation... and pretty much common sense too... then Y - O - U end up loooking like (and SOUNDing like) that comPLETEly unR-E-A-Dable motivational author that E V E R Y ONE I know thinks that I want to read.

You KNOW the 1. He's the guy that breaks out his ideas/thoughts/inspirations/otherstuff with slashmarks and ODD P-U-N-C-T-U-A-T-I-O-N.

I love his teachings, but BOY are they hard on the eyes. (Yes, folks, that would be T-O-M P-E-T-E-R-S.)

TATE = ME
(I'm serious - great lessons, but my glasses need glasses when I read it.)
 
Posted by: Frances* Accepted Answer
1/18/2005 3:03 PM (CST)
...but on the other hand, if you don't ignore ANY grammar/punctuation mistakes, you may end up like Lynne Truss - who has severe nervous palpitations whenever she spots a missing apostrophe!

(Lynne Truss is the one who wrote Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation. She advocates throwing bricks through the windows of businesses who make punctuation errors)...
 
Posted by: POP Boss* Accepted Answer
1/19/2005 4:05 AM (CST)
As for the "The presentation centers around", I would simply says that the presentation "focused on".
 
Posted by: Jeepers* Accepted Answer
1/20/2005 9:34 AM (CST)
My Latin memories are limited to "puer est in oppidum" which translates, roughly, to: the boy is in the walled town.

In regrds to compliance with/to : AP and CP style guides are pretty clear that 'with' would be correct. Rule of thumb: you use "to" with an active verb, as in... 'I am going to the store'.

I agree with DisplayPlan about the use of "centers". In reality, center is a noun, not a verb. But beyond that, common parlance would have us center on something not around it.

Seeing as others are bringing up their pet grammatical peeves, here's mine: the current buzz word "impacted". In my mind, there's an impact when you get hit by a train or the impact of a tornado is severe. It's a noun - not a verb. For me, the only thing that comes to mind when someone says impacted is the noun that means you're unable to divest yourself of a particular form of body waste... as in "I need a laxative". Think about that the next time your bottom line is impacted.

J
 
Posted by: EW* Accepted Answer
1/20/2005 9:52 AM (CST)
Definitely compliance or comply WITH and not TO...this comes from a great deal of experience with the pharmaceutical industry where alot is written on compliance issues.
 
Posted by: Michele Author Response
1/21/2005 11:18 PM (CST)
Thank you all for your input. Special thanks to Displayplan for those links - hope you added them to the resource library.

Glad to see that KHE has many grammar fundis and pedants (but I would not expect anything less).

Best wishes,
Michele.

PS You have my vote for 'throught' as well.
 


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