Question

Topic: Strategy

Sinners And Saints Needed:a Market For Indulgences

Posted by steven.alker on 1000 Points
Dear Marketing Colleagues

I was musing with Chris Blackman (ASVP / Cris B) on the possible use of “Indulgences” to make cheats on this forum feel a bit better and to help to save their souls. He commented that making money from indulgences had all gone way downhill since banned by Pope Pius V in 1567 when he forbade the exchange of money for them, though it is doubtful that his judgement would be upheld in a court of law today because it was extracted under duress by Martin Luther and his Protestant Reformation Mob in the early 1520’s.

So, it falls to modern marketers to see how we can introduce a thriving new product to raise consumer awareness of sin and to make a bit of money at the same time. After all, as the pioneers of the Rolls-Royce Pastor and Touch-the-Set- and -Send –Your Cheque-Tele-Evangelism, the American contingent on Marketing Profs won’t feel too queasy about the idea, will they?

As bog-standard Indulgences have been ruled out by historical precedent, we need a Web 2.0 replacement which can be openly marketed and preferably traded on an exchange or market. As the US Consolidated Debt Obligation and that wonderful French Chappie who blew $7 Billion on derivatives for Societe Generale last month have shown, we can see that markets are where the really big money is to be made (And by the looks of the antics of the bankers, it’s also the place where some sort of forgiveness of sin might just be in big demand)

This has led me to setting up a Futures Market in Sin with a currency of Traded Obligations. These would not be the discredited type of offering (Rich man pays Bishop $1M in order not to go to Hell) but sophisticated Financial Instruments which could be traded via the derivatives market where punters (The public) or traders and institutions, could take a reasoned investment choice (i.e. a bet) on the future likelihood of people needing to buy absolution for sins as yet unknown and maybe for sins as yet uninvented..

Chris has pointed out that this would require a regulated exchange, and there isn’t one at the moment, so we might as well found that at the same time. Maybe our army of tag-line and naming experts could help out here, but I’ve come up with a couple for starters.

The Anglican Church is for instance ruled by the General Synod. With a small change in spelling we’d have the General Sinod to govern trades in mortal peril. Or there’s that bloke who runs the Scottish Church “The Moderator or the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland” He sounds like a beacon of propriety, but, here’s the point, he dresses up like Dick Turpin the Highwayman in order to go to work.

Then there’s the Governmental Revenue Benefits otherwise called TAX (I have to be careful using that three-letter word, lest I offend Conservatives and Republicans)
Here, with lashings of added grammar, we can teach the concept of Moral and Sinful Donation to the Government at school, in English Maths and IT lessons. It would be called by its old name of Syntax or as we would re-package it, Sin-Tax.

We also need names and product ideas. We’ve got the Consolidated Sin-Obligation Package, which will offer forgiveness at a future date for screwing up 100Million people’s mortgages. We do need others from you guys and gals.

FOREX markets use double dipping tools, so we could have an indulgence to wash clean 500 years worth of dunking witches in the pond. This would appeal to modern politicians who are struck with a need to keep apologising for history and could be applied to any past outrage which with hindsight we feel a bit bad about.

I’m setting up an advisory committee which already has our local Vicar as a Technical / Theological Advisor, with whom I’ve discussed the idea in concept after a retreat at the weekend. He thinks that it’s a hoot and good way of raising the next £5M for the church roof.

We’ve got a fellow church member who is a city lawyer to run the legal side and her husband who just happens to be a Derivatives Rocket Scientist in a merchant bank would look at the maths. He’s keen as the final product would appeal to him and his mates, making them feel a bit more at ease burning up the planet with their Aston Martins, Mercs and Porches.

So it’s over to you. We need ideas on the:

Structure of the market

The names of the products and what they will do

Public marketing initiatives for the sinner-in-the-street

Ways of stopping the Rudgwick branch of the Christian Fundamentalist Brethren from burning me at the stake.

Etc.

Best wishes


Steve Alker

PS I’ve just thought of a product: Scourging or self flagellation to expunge sin is not very popular outside such “Works of Fact” like The DaVinci Code, but we could sell a derivative based on the likelihood of someone, somewhere putting together a band of nutters who would be prepared to mutilate themselves for someone else’s sake and a small contribution to their whip-fund. Can you imagine how that would go down in the S&M community? (That’s not Sales and Marketing by the way!!)


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RESPONSES

  • Posted by CarolBlaha on Accepted
    When I read your post I thought of carbon offsets. Its a true buying the stairway to heaven-- waste what you want and write a small cheque and its all better. It is unregulated and has its share of scandals -- taking money and not providing services. People love buying trees to offset-- and the directors themselves admit buying trees is not benefiting the environment.

    There is even a priest in the UK that goes to enviro fairs and sets up confessionals to hear your enviro sins (accepting donations).

    The environment is full of these types of opportunities. I did my masters thesis on enviro marketing-- separating the truth from the greenwash.
  • Posted by steven.alker on Author
    Dear Carol

    I too think that the carbon offset is enviro-twaddle and an excuse to salve political consciences whilst making money.

    That makes it bad, which means that we in the indulgence trade can supply the Sin Offsets needed to purge the users of enviro-babble and make them OK in their hearts as well as on the balance sheet. If I’m not very much mistaken, it should be pretty good for our balance sheets too.

    The eco-industry which calls itself the green lobby has done a wonderful marketing job. As a scientist, I happen to think that global warming is a real potential threat which we ought to sake ever so seriously, but for all the validity of the arguments used by the enviro-marketers, melting ice caps could have been caused by, fairies at the bottom of the garden, as long as it gets them elected and / or paid.

    We can latch onto the green marketing movement to piggy backing our ethical and ecologically sound products. As the soul doesn’t have any mass, it can’t have a carbon footprint and as our market in, say, "Differences of Sinfulness” will be electronic, trading it wont pollute either. That’s a good start.

    Now how about a Future option on feeling guilty about burning heretics? That is quite straightforward and will only appeal to certain markets. However – options to trade our collective guilt about all the carbon dioxide released whilst we were burning them would have more appeal and we could trade it on the Carbon Exchange as well as The Sin Exchange, or whatever we are going to call it.

    Even Al Gore would endorse that one


    Steve
  • Posted by CarolBlaha on Accepted
    Well then add all our sins.

    If you drink too much we can buy offsets to be used for research in liver disease and a fund to help those who need a transplant. Smoke? Offsets for lung cancer research and money for their victims. Sex addict? Funding for HIV research and treatment.

    Then start a mutual fund and let people decide who the winners are-- one of stocks such as MO, TAP and other sins-- and another of healthier choices. Which will you invest in WTW or YUM?

    No judgements about the choices-- wouldn't that be an interesting blog
  • Posted by Frank Hurtte on Accepted
    Steve,
    I have admired the idea since I first read about it in a History class so many years ago.

    My only concern is the very likely natural attraction of politicians to the concept.

    Furthermore, I wonder if a low cost version "Indugence" might be produced in Asia for half the money.

  • Posted by phil.wesel on Accepted
    Well I don't yet have any products to profer but I do have the idea(s) for a couple of follow on products. Frequent Sinner Miles for one. For every 25,000 sins you commit, you get a free trip somewhere offered through the exchange. I thought of one place but its not a round trip at least not that I know of so it's out.

    And we might as well have avatars and all the neat things from Second Life so that we don't have to do all of our sinning in actuality, we can perform virtual sins and of course that means their is a need for virtual absolutions. Actually I think a place like Second Life would be a great place to try out your exchange concept.

    And I really like the concept of "puts" and "calls" for your little exchange. I can tell you unequivocably that I'd like to buy a few puts for people I have worked for in the past and probably a few that I will work with in the future.

    If people in the third world can sell kidneys and other non-essential body parts than how about a good solid third world market in souls. Heck a poor guy in Guatemala or Peru probably hasn't had the economic resources to commit some doozies so his relatively untarnished soul should be worth a few bob on the exchange especially to bankers and hi-fi mortgage brokers.

    I really like the idea of us issuing our own credit cards much like paypal and etrade and a number of others have done. Without stealing too much from Capital One. I think the right kind of credit card coupled with sin indulgence points could be really handy down the road and bring a whole new meaning to the saying "What's in your wallet"

    Anyhow consider me for early investment in the exchange. I would love to get in early and get a few "friends and family" options prior to the IPO/ISA

    (Initial Public Offering/Initial Sins Absolution.)

    Good luck on the products, I'll stay tuned.
  • Posted by Chris Blackman on Accepted
    Guilt makes me think I should be Customer #1.

    "Forgive me, forum members, for any part I may have played, wittingly or unwittingly, in bringing this question to life".

    Chris Blackman
  • Posted by CarolBlaha on Accepted
    I might also add many of these orgs-- including the CCC's are set as nonprofit entitites -- untaxed and unregulated. Non profit except for the ED's--

    Its such a cool idea-- great mind candy and a lot more interesting -- the moon is the limit. One of our sins can be to offset that fool selling worthless moon plots!
  • Posted by phil.wesel on Accepted
    Those moon plots are not worthless. At least I hope not as I purchased two of em overlooking the sea of tranquility. I plan on opening the first Nascar circuit race called the Lunar Loonie 2043 sometime in the next couple of decades. BTW isn't NASCAR a sin as you watch forty odd folks run round in circles in the vain hope that one or two will crack up into one or two of the others. Then you say, Oh wasn't that horrible while watching to see if it happens again.

    Anyhow back to the exchange since that is the question du jour. Can we launch our own IPOs out there as shadow IPOs of real companies. I hear that VISA is launching an IPO on March 19 or 20th of this month so I propose we launch a counter IPO with 406 million shares priced at a very reasonable .37 per share.

    We can use marketingprofs points as psuedo currency until all the details get worked out and I proposed that we create our own little Marex currency trading exchange with all currencies priced back into expert points.

    Not sure where I am headed with this but I guess I will end for now. Always wanted to run my own not for profit......
  • Posted by Frank Hurtte on Accepted
    I plan on celebrating the completion of my latest book and my birthday next Saturday Night...

    Can I make a pre-purchase of a few indulgences?

    On second thought, do you have a wholesale deal?
  • Posted by steven.alker on Author
    Randall

    Ahh! Blue Sapphire and Tonic, how utterly civilised you are.. But that won’t require even a teensy-weensy little bit of forgiveness of sin. Now a bucket-full, maybe.

    I look forward to what you come up with once you have achieved a little bit of Nirvana. O Heck – that’s someone else’s religion, sorry!

    Carol

    The Mutual Fund is exactly the kind of fresh thinking this needs to get the products of the new exchange out into insurance linked investment funds, bonds and pension plans for the great unwashed. Sorry, consumers. A mutual Fund would invest in the Indulgence Market Products just as current funds invest in the Stock Market. Members would be able to monitor performance by following the Sindex on line and watch their investments go up and up without having to suffer from guilt.

    I don’t see why the members should be the main beneficiaries though. How about a Unit Trust structure where a fund could buy Sliced – Sin products on behalf of their members and charge a management fee? By investing in the indulgence market, members could hedge their guilt about a whole range of things including getting seriously rich.

    This is getting to be so exciting, but complex and exciting in a Get Rich way that I’m off to attend a couple of seminars of the Terms, Methodology and Algorithmic Basis of the Derivatives Market, hosted by one of our local merchant bankers.

    Best wishes


    Steve Alker



  • Posted by steven.alker on Author
    New product announcement:

    Guilt Edged Investments.

    Boy that was a pleasant lunch. Those Goldman boys certainly know how to make me feel dreadful about spending slightly more than the GDP of Zimbabwe on a meal for three. But amends have been made – they bought a contract for 2 million “British Empire Imperialist Transgressor Options” priced in Zimbabwean Dollars, so even if we’re feeling really overcome with remorse, we can pay it off in toilet paper.

    It is useful to know that our research has recently shown that we have not, repeat not, been beaten to this whole product idea. In fact, the preponderance of witty concepts based on feeling bad about the markets etc are few and far between. I couldn’t let this reference pass me by because I think that we can offer a more attractive product whilst offering salvation of a kind to those who matched the original definition.


    Guilt Edged Investments section 2

    According to this hum-dinger of a born-again dictionary, it means “An investment which is made through unethical means”

    https://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Guilt-Edged+Investment

    We can improve on that by quite a few prayer points. Firstly our investments will be highly ethical and approved by the vicar. Secondly, apart from being a lot of goodie-two-shoes, we hedge the owner about future guilt of an as yet unspecified nature. OK, if you admit to tendencies bordering on maniacal personality disorder, your risk is going to be priced quite high, but, like Lloyd’s of London, we should still be able to offer it. Who knows, maybe you will discover Prozac.

    For administrative purposes, the Inland Revenue have agreed that the total of Syntax (See Sin-Tax) payable on capital gains for Guilt-Edged Investments will be set against any losses incurred in Penance Futures. We’re working on Wailing Wall Offsets for the Orthodox community.

    Frank: Why are you worried about politicians getting involved? OK, they are, by and large, corrupt, lying, tainted, arrogant, nose-in-the trough self interested scum-bags, but hey, they help the likes of you and me to make money. As long as they get a share.

    What’s more, if they are involved, they need the products which we can supply to them at cost. We can also hedge against the possible cost of a politician going straight, by taking out a Contract for Dodgyness. That failing and we know where the politician lives, we can just take out a contract. Good grief, this must be how it feels to sell heroin dealerships to addicts.

    Also, the idea of having a lower cost Asian product is very appealing, but firstly we must get it checked out by the local spiritual authorities there. I didn’t know why, but I just can’t see it going very far in Pakistan. On the other hand, were these markets to suddenly to develop a sense of humour, the potential is vast. Most of the Indian and Pakistani business people who I know, can’t understand why we in the west obsess over making 100$ on a $1000 contract and selling 1000 of them when they would settle for 1 $ on a 10$ contract and sell 10,000,000 of them. I can do the maths but most western bankers seem unable. In any case, with their intrinsic spiritualism and deeply embedded corrupt officialdom we should be able to come up with some really attractively leveraged products which should appeal to the risk-takers and risk-averse alike. Re-Incarnation Futures which hedge against the holder being sent back as an Insect should be popular, but there might just be a problem about a large number of very wealthy bluebottles in a few years time.

    Steve

  • Posted by Chris Blackman on Accepted
    Steve

    I have a truckload of Zimabawean one-dollar bills I will send you in exchange for the book rights on this question. Deal?

    ChrisB
  • Posted by steven.alker on Author
    Chris

    At the current exchange rate of One Truck Load = £1.00.

    That seems like a fair exchange.

    Consider it done. You will be hearing from my Lawyers with the contract and my Psychiatrist with the pill so make you feel better. This thing appears to be contagious.

    Best wishes

    Dr Demento
  • Posted by steven.alker on Author
    In the immortal words of Tom Lehrer’s Vatican Rag:

    Get in line in that processional
    Step into that small confessional
    There, the guy who's got religion'll
    Tell you if your sin's original

    And so far the originality of ideas has been stunning. If Tom were around, he’d probably set the post to music.

    Phil

    Where is the best place to earn Frequent Sinner Miles? My guess is in the toilet on a 747, but the idea holds water for marketing to the public. I’ll contact Air Miles and upset them. The avatar idea is great – so far, I’ve shied away from any public forum which is inhabited by morons (ie the public) because I don’t want to precipitate that fatwa too quickly. Virtual Sin and exoneration therefrom in a virtual environment should appeal to hackers and people who think that they are Captain James T. Kirk.

    Whatever made you think that it was or is going to be a “Little Exchange?” Put options and Calls will be available as well as “OhMyGod’s” as in “Oh My God I pushed the wrong button” which are very popular with Forex traders. As for the credit card – we can introduce a new form of charges. Rather than bust you for $30 every time you exceed your limit, you get a certain number of days in Purgatory added to your “Pearly Gates” account. Indulgences can then be purchased to offset this and the profit from the indulgence trade is used to offset your $ debt. Nice one.

    We’ve already looked at Asian options and the same issues pertain to Third World Countries except that here I would expect the World Bank and the IMF to be major customers as a penance for screwing those nations up in the first place. The IPO idea is also welcome, but as we know from the LSE, floating an exchange on an Exchange is about as difficult as floating a ship on another ship instead of on water. It’s called a crash or a collision.

    Steve


  • Posted on Accepted
    Like the stock market, this is too "high-brain" for most. What we need is the ability to bring it to the common man - "Would you like an indulgence with those fries?" "That'll be $19 for the all-meat pizza, extra cheese and diet coke and $6 for the indulgence." "Yes, those slacks do make you thinner and I'll use one lying and deceiving indulgence."

    Better yet - game shows on television. So you want to be a Saint! Bet against the wheel -what is this sin worth to you? Here's your option - win for Heaven - lose for - well, you know where that's going.

    Bottom line, when everybody plays - we all win! - (oooo -Windulgences!!!!)

    Just my two indulgences worth.

    CVN

  • Posted by Chris Blackman on Accepted
    What? You mean I'll need to cash one in, every time I am asked the question every husband dreads: "No, honestly, tell me the truth, does this make my butt look big?"

    I'll take a couple of dozen. Bill me fortnightly.

    ChrisB
  • Posted by steven.alker on Author
    Chris

    You are Australian these days - if not by naturalisation, then by osmosis.

    You are meant to be too drunk to notice the little lady's butt, and in any case, what’s this "Going shopping with the wife?"

    Your place is at the barbie -100 Hail Bloody Mary's please, pronto and no cheating.

    Steve
  • Posted by steven.alker on Author
    Juliet

    Bart’s sale of his soul was a triumph of kids over the devil and from a religious perspective I liked it. Faustus (Marlow and Goethe rather than that bloody opera) was more powerful, but awards too much despair to Satan. Mind you, the walk-on part of Helen of Troy was a hit with me at University, but that was mainly due the very tasty girl cast as Helen. Whoops, that’s 30 Indulgences worth of short-maturity mental adultery bonds needed before Hilly reads this. In fact I’d better have some Indexed-Sloth-Put’s as well as I’m meant to be working on a £625K contract, not piffling around with this!

    Envy is covered by our guilt in the Dutch Antilles branch of the exchange were there are many dodgy banks which will set up a shell company for your tax avoidance. Instead of Ltd or plc or Inc they are suffixed NV, such as the GreedyBastard Company NV. Well, I havn’t got an account there and I’m filled with NV

    Pride is not a sin. Gay Pride, however is---very colourful!


    Steve


  • Posted by Chris Blackman on Accepted
    Whaddya talking about, shopping? (-100 HMs)

    I'm sitting in the car out front with my hand on the horn till she shows up to go to the pub. (+100 indulgences).

    Yes, naturalised, but not lobotomised.

    "Blimey mate, where's me boomerang?"

    ChrisB

  • Posted on Accepted
    In my much younger days, too drunk often meant you were overly inclined to notice what "thou shalt not." I'd be in the poorhouse, were it necessary to pay for all of the indugences for my youthful indiscretions!

    Enjoy this extra day of 2008 - consider investing in a few indulgences!

    CVN
  • Posted by Frank Hurtte on Accepted
    Steve,
    The Marketing Professional's Day after

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7Mn7vcSW6E

  • Posted on Accepted
    I received the most recent issue of American Business yesterday and their "final word" is usually an interesting photo. This issue fits right in with this thread. No explanation - just very "high-class-looking" signage in a business establishment in big gold letters "Cash and Redemption."

    Carpe Diem!

    CVN

  • Posted on Member
    Upon further examination - the magazine is American and the photo was taken in a casino.

    CVN
  • Posted by steven.alker on Author
    Chris

    The only problem I have with Carpe Diem is that now that a couple of the get-rich-on-the-web merchants have seen the film, The Dead Poets Society, they use it as a motivational video for their suckers, sorry clients to get them to send them not $97, not $56 but only $29 to enrol in their web-mastery course. Seize the day, send me your money NOW!

    If they didn’t make such a lot of money, I wouldn’t have a sneaking admiration for them, but what the hell, I’m close to cracking their “Formula” and they are sorely in need of lots of forgiveness for launching things in the past that requite more idiots than there are people on the planet for anyone in MLM layer 12 to succeed.

    The latest format is less pyramidal but just as income generative for the originator and sod the pupil most of the time!

    I wonder how we go about attracting the students of web-guru’s and MLM kings to our marketplace – Of course! I buy a double opt in email list of people who want to make money and then charge them $ 27 a month to show them how to charge others $27 a month whilst sending half of the profits to me.

    Steve!
  • Posted on Accepted
    It appears as though Gov. Elliot Spitzer may be in need of emergency indulgences - could someone send "The Indugencer" (Could be a movie with lots of sequels - like "The Terminator") over to help him in NYNY???

    Oops.
    The proverbial - What goes around - comes around!

    CVN
  • Posted by steven.alker on Author
    Hi and sorry for the absence – pressing re-financing accomplished without the sin of cobbling the accounts! That is true divine guidance.

    Budget day, a report from Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Conner, the head of the Catholic Church in the UK and our Vicar’s contribution to the derivatives trade in sin.

    The budget in the UK was mind boggling – having just had to rescue a bank with £100 Billion of taxpayer’s money and squandering ten times that on the Prime Minister’s Client State the Chancellor decided to get tough on plastic carrier bags, threatening further legislation if the supermarkets didn’t curtail their sinful activities of handing them out for people to carry things in.

    This could be a good thing for the employment civil servants as the behaviour of retailers and citizens will need to be monitored by an army of busybodies who will set targets, arrange for tax relief on compliance and no doubt set up a regulator called OffBag (We already have OffWat for water and OffGen for electricity along with 356 OffDays a year for the labour government’s fiscal policies) Targets would be set and being only human, targets will be fiddled.

    That means we will need a special inspectors and auditors to police OffBag and gender and race awareness days to ensure that their activities are not too white, middle class and heterosexual. In addition we will need an indulgence for the sin of Bagging which of course we will be happy to create if the market demand is there.

    Meanwhile, the Cardinal has pronounced that environmental crimes should be added to the more traditional seven deadly sins, which neatly slots into our idea of flogging sin-relief for using too many plastic bags. It now looks as though Carol Blaha was even more prescient than usual by predicting that the Carbon-Trading Market would be a good analogue for our Indulgence Exchange and we can be sure of a steady demand from the 10,000 civil servants and other busybodies who will be employed in non-jobs to ensure that in future, I use a re-useable bag.

    My wife is all in favour of that as long as it is made by Gucci or Louis Vuitton.

    Finally the Vicar – I didn’t get to church last Sunday, but my friends at our Bible Study Group who did told me that the Vicar had mentioned our idea. It seems that with a keen sense of humour, he can see the virtue of taking the Mickey out of setting up a spoof market in sin and that our discussion makes people think about it (Just in case you were in any doubt, you cannot buy your way to heaven anymore than you can get there by blowing up people with whom you have a difference of religious opinion) so our attempt to raise the odd billion or ten for church funds through fallacious thinking is probably no worse than thinking that we can save the penguins through trading carbon offsets or using string-bags.

    Steve
  • Posted by steven.alker on Author
    Dear Friends and Sinners Alike

    I’d just realised that I’d not closed this out.

    Thanks to everyone for contributing – repeatedly in some cases. For those for whom I havn’t done an individual comment, it’s nothing personal, just running out of space! The project meanwhile has moved on. Everyone (well, most people) is agreed that it’s a bit of a laugh, that in the wrong hands it could be an unscrupulous way of profiting from the gullible and that public association with the idea might lead to blackballing from the club / church / local fraternity house / and so on.

    We have therefore decided to advance to stage two which is the construction of the market and exchange. We’ll be back here for further tips for marketing the product and selling franchises to the willing. It’ll be called Sin-dication (!) Ouch!

    Best wishes


    Steve

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