Question

Topic: Strategy

Need Help In Dealing With Sales Staff, Boundaries

Posted by M.R. on 7/26/2010 at 8:00 PM ET 250 Points
I can't post such a question on LinkedIn because both of our salespeople have accounts and are linked to me. I know this dilemma is not mine alone, but one faced by many marketers.

We just hired a new salesman. Although he's supposed to be a "hunter", I've never seen him go out on a call alone and he's been with the company for two months. It took him quite some time to build a call list and is just now starting to make his calls. Meanwhile, guess what he's also been doing? Creating a list of magazine contacts to send a request to test our upcoming product. Sigh.

I asked my boss if he had assigned "Bob" that task. (Because I already have a list that I use to send pressers and queries.) He admitted he did not, but described Bob as a "go-getter." He did want me to check in with him regarding a mail campaign that again, he created completely on his own. My boss wanted to ensure that a cohesive branding message was being sent. (Thank God he's on board with that one!) :-)

I tried to be diplomatic with my boss but I really didn't express what was on my mind, which was, why did we hire this guy to do sales but instead he's involved with marketing initiatives?

I'm frustrated but want to be careful. We're a small business and the one salesperson I've had to deal with has at times tried to insert herself in marketing activities and I've had to create some boundaries. I know marketing and sales need to work together, but why is it I feel like they're trying to do my job? I do not believe that marketing is the same thing as sales.

And before anyone asks: both of these sales people are in the office more than any sales staff I've seen. In another life, I was a salesperson for a weekly newspaper and I pounded the pavement most of the time. I understand about "building relationship," but I also know that every once in awhile, cold calling works.

Any encouragement/advice would be greatly appreciated.
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RESPONSES

  • Posted by CarolBlaha on 7/27/2010 at 6:56 AM Accepted
    They aren't out pounding the pavement cause they don't have to. Your boss is letting this happen. He's allowing them to be paid to be busy vs be productive. These guys are bullxxxxers. There are a lot of coasters in sales, and you learn quickly how to work the system. After all, there is a long sales cycle and it takes time. All excuses.

    I would set your boundaries as you have done before. Talk to the boss about team work. Tell him these guys are spending time doing what you have already done or can do for these guys. But until your boss stops allowing these guys to sit on their duppas, not much will change. Until the boss looks at his P&L and discovers for himself what these guys are costing him.

    Small biz can't afford coasters. Salespeople are supposed to be a profit center not an expense. But, as NuCO says, don't get defensive and directly attack these guys. Go the "teamwork" approach, and sooner or later they'll have no where to hide. How about suggesting follow up marketing from these guys (now non-existant) call reports?
  • Posted by M.R. on 7/27/2010 at 7:55 AM Author
    Thank you so much for the comments. Very helpful!

    Phil, although newspaper ad sales may be different, I still believe there is the core of selling involved, which means actually "getting out there" and doing the pitches. I suppose I've allowed my own background to affect me and just needed to rant. Thanks for understanding. :-)

    My boss founded this company and is the CEO. His problem is that he is very easy-going. His mistake (and his wife's, who is co-owner, which is another whole ball of wax...) was hiring their a salesperson who is stubborn and basically does whatever she wants. (The only salesperson who was here when I started.) No matter if the boss says the sky is blue, this salesperson will argue with him that its green. She has been with the company for 4 years. So in effect, he's been walked on and rarely confronts her.

    Now they hire another guy who seems to be doing whatever he wants to do, with limited expectations set by the boss. I have a monthly strategy meeting with my boss and that's when I asked how Bob's idea of a mailing campaign came about because he hadn't checked in with me.

    Boss agreed that he was on his own. What my challenge has been since I've worked here (going on 2 years) has been to craft a consistent marketing strategy. The boss is all over the place and jumps from one thing to another. Long-term initiatives are a challenge for him.

    NuCoPro, I agree wholeheartedly. My intent is not to complain, but to avoid wasting precious resources. I wear a lot of hats and want to make sure that my own efforts aren't being duplicated. I definitely don't want to assume anything, which is why I asked my boss what the score was before thinking of "the next step."

    My boss did say that he trusts my judgement and was going to give me the responsibility to evaluate whether a trade show was worth attending or not. (The one salesperson would usually pitch the boss first about her desire to go to a trade show and receive permission or not from him.)

    I think my next step would be to ask my boss to meet with myself and the sales team. He mentioned this before and I know he wants us all to work together (which I've already done with the original salesperson) but before I do that, I think I'll write up some thoughts and send it to him via email.

    What I value most in an office in communication and right now, there is too much presumption. I hope that I can bring some clarity to the situation.

    Carol, you're comment cracked me up! I already have in process a database report that they can use and will provide some analytics for the boss. Before, the lone salesperson "didn't use it" basically because she didn't want to. I pitched my boss and showed him how our database can HELP track the sales team's contacts and how everyone has access and why this is a good thing. He liked it and then I created a process doc for the CFO (the wife), who loves tables, lists, etc.

    I'll be presenting a "lunch and learn" to our office on how to use the database and how one can export a report. I know the original sales person isn't thrilled but she'll need to get over it. I know for a fact she's lied about how many calls she makes (she told me she just "makes it up") so this at least will require some type of accountability. "Bob" is already using the database.

    And no, she doesn't realize I'm the the one who initiated this. ;-)
  • Posted by michael on 7/27/2010 at 8:45 AM Accepted
    Mary Rose,

    YOU understand the lines between marketing and sales but your sales person does not. I've been in that person's shoes and done both because marketing was doing nothing...but collecting a paycheck.

    Have a meeting with this guy and give your marketing plan for the next 6 months. Ask if there is anything else that they feel needs to be done. Then, ask what their plan is. Now you can identify those activities that are marketing related and remove them from the list. Explain consistency of message. Sales people don't always get it.

    I know you were a salesperson before but don't use that. They'll think "that was before, things are different now". Principles, no. Environment, yes.


    By the way, sales management and sales are completely different.

    Hope this helps.

    Michael
  • Posted by CarolBlaha on 7/27/2010 at 8:45 AM Accepted
    There isn't a salesperson in the world (including me-- there I said it) who hasn't faked an occasional call report.

    But change has to come from above. When I do sales coaching it's always the guy who hired me, who pulls me back. Sales doesn't think I trust them, Sales thinks we're micro managing. The guy is paying me to get things turned around and sabatoges himself.

    It amazes me. You pay someone to wash the front windows and you're out there inspecting what you expect. But sales-- the #1 line of any P&L, we just "trust".

    You don't need to look for a new job, but you may have to realize that you may come to a dead end on this. The boss has to change. Bosses are good at telling others to change, but wait-- you mean me too?
  • Posted by CarolBlaha on 7/27/2010 at 9:04 AM Accepted
    I agree the boss won't change. Like in my post, bosses spout change-- of everyone but themselves. MR can move on, or just decide to control the things she can. You can't change the wind, but you can adjust your sales.

    That'll mean stepping out of it. If it's in her face and going to drive her crazy, you are right, she should move on. One way or another she'll have to make a choice-- move on or get past it.

    And small business wonders why so many fail? The cash flow may be stable now, but we know if sales continues to coast and be a cash drain-- the biz will not continue.
  • Posted by M.R. on 7/27/2010 at 12:53 PM Author
    Since this is the first time I posted a question, I wasn't sure how long to allow it to stay open before I closed it. I like what I've heard so far.

    Michael, great idea. I've already suggested a meeting. We'll see how it goes.

    I think out of all the commenters, Gary (NuCoPro) has hit the proverbial nail on the head. The owners leave and work from another location from December to April, taking advantage of electronic connections. They work from home three days during the week. I appreciate "workshifting" but it's made for a "Wild West" style leadership. Evidently, it supports the lifestyle they want.

    I was also chuckling, Gary, when I read your advice. I've started a side marketing/graphic communication business for entrepreneurs that includes copywriting, graphic design, and web design. I agree that when the boss doesn't care who's driving, then any road looks fine.

    I've really appreciated the comments. Thanks again for your wisdom. :-)
  • Posted by CarolBlaha on 7/27/2010 at 2:09 PM Accepted
    My daughter is newly employed-- first real job after graduation. Same scenario. Boss's daughter works there and he has his daughter in tears most days. "mom my boss is a jerk" Get used to it deary. Bosses are paid to get the most out of you, not be reasonable.
  • Posted by CarolBlaha on 7/27/2010 at 2:27 PM Accepted
    I hear you. I was being kind, her boss is a raving idiot. Screaming, throwing stuff. But in this economy, people put up with a lot more abuse than before. Young and 50K in student loans (even after 60K in scholafships) she knows she needs that job. (and will always have one foot out the door) I sat in a meeting with a VP of a large company bragging that its an "employers" market-- how before he had to work with employees, now -- do it my way or leave. End of story. I couldn't do it-- if I wasn't self employed I'd be on medication.

    Leadership is becoming a lost skill.
  • Posted by tdc on 7/27/2010 at 6:34 PM Accepted
    The only way around this situation is to make sure the ONLY job of a salesperson is to sell, not send press releases, not create email campaigns, not finding tradeshows. Nothing else but phone and feet.

    Explain to your boss that for total cohesion to your campaigns, you need to running and implementing them so that they work together. Having other people run campaigns is a wheel spinner, a waste of company resources (that will get his attention.)

    Make sure your boss knows your willing and able to take on those tasks. You'll be adding value to your role while ensuring that a "go-getter" has the time to make the sale happen.

    Also, since you are tracking and implementing, I'd start asking the sales person to report monthly on how the leads that your programs are providing are working, buy explaining how+why deals were won and lost. That way, you'll get more insight into your programs and your sales people will be accountable for sales and the sales process. As someone mentioned, a slick sales person will talk around and around about how "lame" leads are, or how long the process is, etc. BUT, identifying reasons why deals are won or lost will be very revealing and expose "run around" answers to anyone listening.

    If I am not mistaken - I THINK there is a webinar through MarketingProfs on creating a funnel. Might be helpful to your cause.

    Its definitely a challenging situation you're in. I wish you all the best.
  • Posted on 7/27/2010 at 8:27 PM Accepted
    M.R.,

    Feel for you. Have walked similar steps in the past.

    While you're working on your "B Plan" try taking the reins and bring some order to the chaos.

    --Reinforce the lead gen and funnel contributions you are creating via marketing; consider introducing a "closed-loop" process with your database. When there's no movement or info on the marketing leads the laziness will reveal itself.

    --Redistribute and/or update your sales tools. Can help maintain your messaging and end the free-lancing by sales.

    --Consider a brief monthly marketing update: an e-mail to "the team" with a few bullets on your results/success. A little self-promotion and transparency might turn the light on other areas.

    Good luck maintaining your sanity and with building your new business.
    MO
  • Posted by Frank Hurtte on 7/27/2010 at 11:40 PM Accepted
    The basic point here is your company has no sales process.

    Here are four questions your boss should think about.
    Q) Why does McDonald's serve 47 million people a day and Bills Toasty Shop (a hamburger joint started the same year) still only has 11 stools?
    A) McDonald's has a process.
    Q) Is there a connection between sales process and customer perception?
    A) Research shows there definitely is
    Q) Is there such a thing as an "informal process"?
    A) Nope - processes have metrics and measures of success
    Q) Why don't most companies have a process?
    A) Their sales people talk them out of it because they don't want to be held accountable

  • Posted by telemoxie on 7/28/2010 at 7:41 AM Accepted
    there are certainly many issues involved here...

    ... But I would like to focus just for a moment on one of your comments. It seems that you're attempting to impose some sort of a database solution on sales that they can create reports for you. (I'm shooting in the dark here... you may have 100 reasons to implement a sales database, but I'm just going on what you said...)

    Salespeople have no interest whatsoever in creating reports in a format which makes your job easy.

    The implementation of a sales database is a whole can of worms unto itself. Many salespeople have a system which works best for them, even if it does not easily produce reports for you.

    be careful. And, if the salespeople are independent contractors and not employees, it may in fact not be legal for you to impose a work method in the form of a required sales database.

    It sounds like you have many important issues to address. If you are only objective in standardizing on a sales database is to produce a weekly report, then I would suggest this particular battle is not worth fighting.
  • Posted by M.R. on 7/28/2010 at 10:49 AM Author
    Again, great responses!

    Regarding reports: The original driver for this is not me, but our CFO (boss's wife) who has an accountant mindset. She is all about reports. Increasingly, she has wanted more documentation and something to access that includes client contact activity. Our database can do it, it just hasn't been utilized.

    So, I took the lead on it since I'm the one who uses the database the most. I understand that sales people have their different approaches, but it isn't an issue of what makes things easy for me (or even my CFO) but what will help the company in the long run. Sales staff come and go. But at least if they get their client contacts "out of their head" and into a database, then the next salesperson will be able to learn which contacts need attention first.

    I'll leave the question open today and close later. I received much more support than I anticipated. All of you are awesome!
  • Posted by CarolBlaha on 7/28/2010 at 11:07 AM Accepted
    I know-- I have worked with companies that spend a gazillion on CRM's -- only to have it sit unused. Sales hates reports-- but, if you're an employee, you do what you are told to do. I've been a 1099 forever and when a manufacturer pushes me for a report (some reports I swear are asked for just for the sake of reports-- no value other than busy work) I am quick to say "if you want an report, buy an employee". But you can only say that when you are making your #'s. Besides a 1099 is only paid on performance. But it's encouraging that boss's wife is on this. That is a big leg up.

    A great book on sales management is by Ron Marks-- when I reviewed it, I said that book should be called "leading" vs "managing" for Sales Results. Good book about defining boundaries and processes, without making it too complex.

    One of my fave takeaways is the "C" letter, which sales signs. The C is for Committment. The employer agrees to give sales the tools, support, processes etc to succeed. And the employee agrees to use them. He also includes other things, like be on time, avoid gossip. It's a non enforceable doc, but I have found it a great talking point to get someone back on track. If they know you will hold them accountable-- they will be. If they know, I miss my #'s, the next thing will happen is... they won't miss their #'s. If they know there is a system that will catch a faked call report, they won't fake it.

    My best sales manager was a guy who knew how to hold me accountable without micro managing. I achieved more than I knew possible with that guy.

    Sales really does want to be held accountable. It prevents what you have now, a disconnect. With accountability follows knowing your importance, and your numbers to the entire organization. But sales also doesn't want to be micromanaged.

    I took on a line for about 10 days that while very saleable, I was being micromanaged -- even as a 1099. I would have my plan set, and get a call "today drop your plans, we're going to blitz this niche". It destroyed my focus - I knew I'd be spinning my wheels -- and dropped the line.
  • Posted by M.R. on 7/29/2010 at 9:23 AM Author
    Thanks, everyone, for your responses!

    I had a meeting this morning with the salesperson and it went really well. I understand him better and he understands me. In the midst of it, we came up with some ideas on how to market our product. :)

    Carol, you're a smart lady. I laughed at your "Want reports? Hire an employee!" comment. That was priceless! I'll look into that book just for my own development and will recommend also to our new salesperson.

    I'll close the question, now. Thanks, again!
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