Now, the burning question: What exactly is ridiculously good content?

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In the words of MarketingProfs' own CCO Ann Handley, "Ridiculously good content is content that your audience values in one way or another. Secondly, it is inspired in one way or another. It is inspired by data or creatively inspired, or both."

Value, data, and creativity are pretty basic to business, so B2B should be full of ridiculously good content. Right? Well, not quite.

"Content is increasingly a commodity for so many businesses," says Ann. "We check the box and we think content, yeah, we're doing that.... I think there is so much room for us to do it better."

Enter the second edition of Everybody Writes, an overhaul of Ann's first book that updates and expands on the art of content creation. "I felt like there was a need for a book that would give marketers a guide to writing," she explains. "There's lots of books that as a fiction writer, as a journalist, as an academic, talk about writing." Marketers need one, too.

"I really hope that the people who read it love it as much as I do, or at least a little bit, and that they find something of value in it," Ann says.

To hear much more about her writing process and witness some particularly impressive extended metaphors, check out Episode 525 of Marketing Smarts. You can listen to the entire show from the link above, or download the mp3 and listen at your convenience. Of course, you can also subscribe to the Marketing Smarts podcast in iTunes or via RSS and never miss an episode.

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Full Transcript: A Go-To Guide to Creating Ridiculously Good Content

George Thomas: I'm super excited because we're going to go through a guide of creating ridiculously good content. Today, I get to sit down with the one, the only, Ann Handley. You know her, you love her, and today we talk about what keeps her up at night, we talk about creating ridiculously good content, we talk about the book Everybody Writes, the second edition, and so much more. It is a journey, to say the least.

If you haven't met Ann before, Ann is a Wallstreet Journal bestselling author who speaks worldwide about how businesses can escape marketing mediocrity to ignite tangible results. IBM named her one of the seven people shaping modern marketing. She is the chief content officer of MarketingProfs, the folks who give you this Marketing Smarts Podcast. She's also a LinkedIn influencer, a keynote speaker, mom, dog person, and of course, a writer, which led us to today's episode.

Without further ado, let's dive into the deep end of this go-to guide to creating ridiculously good content with Ann Handley.

Ann, I am super excited that we're here today and we get an opportunity to talk about this topic that is a go-to guide to creating ridiculously good content, which is something that everybody needs in the B2B marketing space. Before we dive too far into the deep end, Ann, what keeps you up at night when thinking about creating ridiculously good content?

Ann Handley: A few things keep me up at night, but let me just say before we dive too deep in the deep end and put on our arm floaties and splash around a little bit, it's so nice to chat with you today. A few things keep me up at night. Number one is that content is increasingly a commodity for so many businesses. We check the box and we think content, yeah, we're doing that. The reality is that in B2B marketing especially, I think there is so much room for us to do it better.

That's no shade on B2B marketers, by the way, because I have such love in my heart for them and I am one. At the same time, I think that often we are pressed to do more with less. We don't have the support at the C-level, for example. For a host of reasons, we show up with maybe not our best selves. In my new book and in my mission to help B2B marketers create ridiculously good content, I want to inspire and empower and let marketers know that we got this, we are in this together, and we can do this.

George: I love this so much. I fully believe in all of the words that I just heard and the direction that I know you are going with the book. By the way, the first version was a major turning point for me personally. We'll probably talk about that later in the episode. Just from a mindset and being able to grab a set of tools and rock and roll.

One thing we have to talk about, because of course we put it in the title, we kind of made it clicky just a little bit with ridiculously good content. I hate, or maybe strongly dislike because hate is a strong word, when people are like, "You just have to have great content. Just create great content." And now we're saying ridiculously good content. In your opinion, what the heck is that even, what is ridiculously good content?

Ann: Ridiculously good content is content that your audience values in one way or another. Secondly, it is inspired in one way or another. It is inspired by data or creatively inspired, or both.

Ultimately, ridiculously good content thinks of everything through the eyes of the reader, the person who is on the other end of whatever content you are producing. By that I mean when they look at something that you have written, something that you have produced, do they think to themselves or do they say to their team members, "That was good. That was great."

That is where I want to see us move as an industry, as marketers. Do our readers, do our audience members, do the people who we care most about attracting look at what we're doing, read what we're doing, watch what we're doing, and think it's just fantastic and think it could only come from us? That, to me, is the Holy Grail. That's what ridiculously good content ultimately is.

By the way, I know that a lot of us here today do not maybe identify as writers, and maybe we think that ridiculously good is too high of a bar, but when you asked what keeps me up at night, the other thing that keeps me up at night is making sure that I empower every single marketer, every single person who is listening to this conversation today, to really embrace their own power as a creator, as a writer.

If we are in marketing, we are all writers, so you need to dissuade yourself of this notion that you are not a writer. I think the more that we do that, the more that we can understand our ability to create ridiculously good content and the more that it fuels us as creators.

George: I love that so much for a couple of different reasons. One, just tapping in on this idea of how paralyzing it is for some people just to get words on a page, and here we're starting at "it's going to be ridiculously good, it can be." What's funny is that historically what I battled with was I'm not a writer, but then I realized after reading the first version of the book—of course, today we're talking about the second version—I realized I actually am a writer. What I'm not maybe is an editor, but I'm sure we're going to dig into that a little bit as we go.

The other thing that I really love that you mentioned in there is just this ability for marketers to understand if you are a marketer, you are going to be writing something. Something, small, medium, or large. Here's what I want to go at next. I preface because it's the Marketing Smarts Podcast, B2B, but I would maybe even say all marketers, because maybe a B2C marketer will stumble across this episode someday. How in the world do they create this core focused what's in it for them type of ridiculously good content? How do you create that when you sit down, what do you do, what do you think about, what does your brain say?

Ann: My brain goes in a couple of different directions with that. That's an insider joke. Listeners, do you find that our wonderful friend George often uses that phrase? I love that about him because it's so accurate. Isn't it? We hear something and our brains do go in many different directions. Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled question. How do we create ridiculously good content, where do we start as creators and as marketers?

In the first edition of this book, I shared what I called a writing GPS. Essentially, that was a kind of global positioning system map, a way for you to get to a starting point and an ending point, to where you wanted to go. There were maybe seven or eight stops along the way. The more that I thought about the writing GPS in the eight years that have happened since that first edition of Everybody Writes and the second edition of Everybody Writes, I realized there are a whole lot more steps along the way. So, in the second edition of the book, I really blew it up and made a writing GPS that had about seven or eight steps into (don't freak out) 17 steps.

Seventeen steps sounds overwhelming, it sounds like oh my god, I can't do that, that's too much, I'm already exhausted. But here's the thing. I think when we break down a process into smaller steps, it actually becomes more manageable, not more overwhelming. Each one of those steps is just kind of a checkpoint along the way.

Sometimes it's a thing we need to do. For example, step one, what is your goal? What is your goal from a marketing standpoint, why are you creating this piece of content? It sounds so basic and it sounds so elemental, but I think if we start there, start at what we hope to accomplish with this, and then write it down, put it at the top of your piece of paper if you're doing it longhand—and I hope you're doing it longhand, that would be so fun—or at the top of your page in a Word Doc or Google Docs, or however you're creating. It becomes your beacon that you are always moving toward, so that would be step one.

Then in the rest of those 17 steps, you write a first draft, a rough draft, I call it barfing up the ugly first draft. Some of those things are actually things you need to do, things you need to accomplish, but other times they are moments. Some of those steps in the 17 steps are go for a walk, take a break, step away from the content you're creating, let it evolve in your brain, let it marinate, whatever metaphor you want to use, let it sit for a bit.

The magical thing about any piece of writing, any piece of content we're creating, I don't care whether you're writing a landing page for this podcast or whether you're writing an infographic or a sales brief, it doesn't matter what you're writing, the reality is that anything that we are creating will get better if we just are able to step away from it and then go back it. Author Neil Gaiman talks about how there are magical elves that will come in and tidy it up. Like we have a bunch of Dobby the house elves, if you're a Harry Potter fan, in our brains that will work on our content on the side, and I think that's true. When we step away from it, when we go back to it, we magically see it, "Oh, I see what I have to fix here. That doesn't make any sense. This needs to move here." It happens to me all the time.

So, I'm sharing this with you because some of those 17 steps are things that aren't necessarily a task, but they are things that I think are important in the process of creating ridiculously good content. That 17-step process is the process that I follow. I invite the readers to adapt what they wish and leave the rest. I'm not here to tell everybody how to do it. I'm here to share how I do it, what I've learned from a lifetime of writing and creating content. Take what you want and leave the rest, but I hope it's valuable to you in one way or another.

George: I love that you painted the picture of it being flexible. You can kind of customize it to what you need. I also totally agree with you. Listeners, you might think, "That can't be true," but walking away and coming back and going back over your writing, it was one of the most magical things for me when I learned that the first time around. So, I can't wait to check out the rest of the 17 steps. By the way, if you're like, "I can't wait to figure out the 17 steps," you have to get the book. We're going to talk about the book here in a second, but before we do that, I want to ask another question.

Book or no book, at the end of the day, people fall into potholes and run into hurdles. When we're having this conversation about ridiculously good content, what have you seen historically that has stopped B2B marketers in their tracks and just made it so it was almost impossible to create ridiculously good content?

Ann: I think this is changing, but I think one of those potholes, impediments, hurdles, whatever analogy you want to use, is that we think there is a certain way that we need to write, especially in B2B. I think this is so true especially pre-COVID. B2B marketing generally has been much more arm's length. When we're creating content, we don't tend to use words like "you," we don't tend to use contractions, or start a sentence with a conjunction—like and, or, but—some basic things. The overall effect of that is that our content is a lot less conversational; it feels more hands-off and impenetrable in some ways, and it doesn't feel as warm and friendly.

I think one of the things that I have noticed, and that definitely is true more in the second edition than in the first edition, is that in a post-COVID world I think that many B2B marketers are thinking to themselves, are giving themselves permission, or maybe our bosses are giving us permission, maybe the C-suite is seeing what some competition is doing and saying we have to get in on that, but what we're doing is increasingly dropping that façade.

It's a cliché to say that B2B marketers are humans marketing to humans, but I think if there is anything I've seen in the past couple of years from a B2B content perspective, it's that we absolutely are embracing that opportunity to speak directly to people we care about and to let the voices of the people on our team to let the creators show their personality a little bit because that is very often in B2B what will make us stand out.

We think of voice and we think of point of view and personality in B2B as being hard, and I don't think it's hard. I think it's really a matter of thinking about the people who are creating content on behalf of our brand and giving them just some guidelines, but also a lot of freedom to create on behalf of the brand and let themselves shine their own voices, let themselves speak out. We should all be speaking out.

George: It's so interesting. As I hear you talk through that last section, I'm reminded of the interview that we did with Sally Hogshead, the two-part series Different is Better than Better. This idea of being able to be yourself. Being able to have warm, fuzzy conversations, be that as a differentiator around the B2B human-to-human marketing space. It might be, if you have not checked it out, an episode that you want to check out after this one.

Here's the thing. Marketing Smarts listeners, did you catch onto what we were doing with the title? I'm super curious. Let me know with the hashtag #MPB2B. The title is A Go-To Guide to Creating Ridiculously Good Content, which is only but a small part of the story. We're here today to talk a little bit about Ann and the new book, and I want to go even back in history here in a minute, but the full story is Everybody Writes: Your New and Improved Go-To Guide to Creating Ridiculously Good Content.

Ann, before we dive into some differences of the books, hopes for the books, things like that, I want you to travel back many moons ago and think about when you were first writing the first edition. Why did you write it?

Ann: I wrote the first edition of Everybody Writes because prior to Everybody Writes, I had co-authored Content Rules with my good friend C.C. Chapman. Content Rules was a book that took a more wholistic look at content marketing. It was at the forefront of content marketing. Content marketing was just becoming a thing. When that book came out in 2010, we wanted to give marketers, businesses of all kinds, organizations of all kinds a guide book to how to think about content through a marketing lens on behalf of your own organization.

One of the things that I've always wanted to do, and I felt it was lacking in Content Rules, was a writing book for a content marketing age. I wanted to dive more into writing in Content Rules, but at the same time I thought it doesn't really belong in here. It felt a little indulgent for me to go too far down that path because that really wasn't the focus of the book. But I felt like there was a need for a book that would give marketers a guide to writing. There's lots of books that as a fiction writer, as a journalist, as an academic, that talk about writing.

This is not the only book on writing, certainly, but I felt like what was really lacking was a book that was specifically for businesses and even more specifically for content marketers that would really empower them to be inspired to write, that would make them feel that they didn't have to think of themselves as not a writer, like you and I have already chatted about. It was also borne out of conversations that I had with marketers at the time. The original book came out in 2014, many moons ago. I guess there are several moons in a year, so I don't know, 64 moons ago, something like that, 122 moons ago, I'm not sure. George, do the math while I speak.

The conversations that I had with marketers then who would tell me, "I loved Content Rules, and I liked what you had to say about writing a blog post in a way that would connect with an audience, but I'm not a writer." That whole mantra, I just get so not just tired of hearing, but when I really dug into it, what struck me was that most people when they'd say, "I'm not a writer," what they meant was, "I am bad at grammar," or, "I have some trauma from my school years" where a teacher/parent/authority-figure told us that we're not a writer or not good at something.

Those comments from adults in our life when we're kids just become outsized and I think they really get inside our brain, and those comments tend to set up house there and hang out on the couch, eating nachos, watching Netflix for years, they just hang out there and become part of who we are. I don't think that's true. I felt like I wanted to dissuade everybody. You don't have to be good at grammar at all. In fact, it doesn't matter if you're good at grammar to be a writer. It literally does not, especially now that there are so many tools that can help you with that.

You said a minute ago, George, that reading the book was a watershed moment for you because you realized that it's not that you're not a writer, you're not an editor. You don't have to be, because there are other people who are really great editors. I'm not an editor either, in fact. It's always funny to me when I get emails from people, for example, and they will have read Everybody Writes and they say, "I'm so nervous writing to you because I'm not sure of punctuation in this," and I feel like what they're saying is essentially that I'm going to judge them from a grammar standpoint. I'm the least judgey person when it comes to that stuff. Still, there is this linking in our head of being good at grammar means being a good writer, and it's just not the case.

George: I did the official math while you were finishing that section up. The official number is it's been a butt-ton of moons. That's how many moons it has been since the first release. I want to ask you to go back there just a little bit longer, because I have another question that I want to ask around your hopes.

I know whenever we grab a book, we look at the cover. Let's just go physical book for a second. Of course, there's Audible and Kindle and all of that. You grab a book, you look at it, and you have hopes for it. There's going to be people who are listening to this that maybe didn't catch the first version, this is their first day learning about Everybody Writes. They're going to grab that book, they're going to have hopes.

For me, eight years ago, the hope was I hope this gets me past my hurdle. As a high school dropout, which the only thing worse than my spelling is my grammar. One of them stinks, the other one sucks, I'll let you figure out which two. There was just this mental hurdle of who am I to create content. The unfortunate thing about it, though, is I found myself in a marketing space where everybody was telling me that I had to write blog articles in 2014. There were podcasts, videos were maybe kind of starting to be cool. I had to get past this hurdle, and I was like this has to be the book, this has to be the thing that gets me there, this is my hope for me going through this journey.

I'm curious, to flip the coin for a second. You get done writing the book, you're going to send it out to the world, it's like giving birth almost to this idea that I'm going to give this to marketers and I'm going to save marketers worldwide. What were your hopes for the book as it launched the first time?

Ann: The funny thing about writing a book is that it's so personal. I really pour myself into each book that I write. There's a whole lot of me in the second version of the book, especially, because I am that much more confident, I am that much more secure, I guess, in knowing that what I have to say is useful and helpful to the people that I care about reaching. So, it is a very personal experience.

When you ask about what are my hopes and dreams, I hope that people will like it and that they'll find it useful, full stop. That's it. The funny thing about writing a book is you write it, and it's so close to you. I spent a year working on both the first and second editions of each book. Then it's for sale on Amazon, it's for sale at Books-a-Million and Barnes and Noble, you can pick it up at your local bookseller, and that means it's not mine anymore. It's out in the world and it's having to make its own way, so to speak.

So, it is very much like giving birth. In fact, I talk about it in the book as it's like giving birth to a Honda Civic because it feels that hard in some ways and that big. To extend the analogy, it's very much like giving birth because at some point your kids are not your kids anymore, instead they are fully formed humans, forming their own relationships, and people are making judgments and connecting to them on their own accord. That's exactly what happens with a book as well.

I posted something on LinkedIn yesterday that basically said that. I said it was a big day for me, yesterday was the official release day. You and I are recording this on October 26 and the book came out on October 25. I said on LinkedIn that I love this book, I spent the last year working on it, and now it's yours and I hope you like it.

I guess what I'm saying is I might have hopes and dreams for it, but ultimately it kind of doesn't matter because I did what I felt I had to do, I said what I had to say, and I really hope that the people who read it love it as much as I do, or at least a little bit, and that they find something of value in it.

George: So interesting that you used the words I did what I had to do. Almost like it was a calling, something you had to bring to the world. I love that mindset. Which does lead nicely into why a second edition? What's happening now, what has changed, what was the spark where Ann woke up one day and said, "I need more work in my life," why a second version? Just wax poetic on that for a hot minute.

Ann: The second edition was borne out of, I would say a need, but it was really a want to make Everybody Writes accessible and feel relevant to a new age of marketers. The book came out eight years ago, as we've talked about, a hundred million moons ago, and there's a whole new crop of marketers that are now entering B2B marketing, who are now becoming content creators, who are now going to conferences, and I meet them all the time. I wanted to make sure that this book felt fresh and updated and that it spoke to them as well. That was my first goal.

I opened it up and I started going through it, thinking honestly that it was going to be a pretty easy update. I thought I'll just freshen some of the examples in here, freshen up the data, there was some dated data in there. I thought I would update it and just kind of run a vacuum over it, essentially, spray some Febreze around it, and call it a day, like so fresh, so clean, we're done, fantastic, let's go to the pool. But when I opened it up and started reading it, I realized pretty quickly that there's a few things in here that really need more updating.

So, rather than just dusting and running the vacuum and spraying the Febreze, I stripped this entire book down to the studs. I rebuilt it completely, I re-ran the wiring, I added a new roof, I installed a bouncy house in the backyard because I wanted it to be more fun to read, fun to access. There's a whole lot of updating that went into this. This was not just a refresh.

There's this mantra in publishing that to call a book a second edition, you need to update at least 20% of it. I had a conversation with my publisher about six months ago, and she said, "How's it going?" I said, "You know that 20% thing? I think really what we're doing is we're maybe leaving about 10% and we're rewriting and redoing 90%." She said, "You're crazy." I said, "Thank you. I know." But I felt like I had to do it, I wanted to do it.

This book is important not only to me, but I want it to be important to marketers. I think it's an important perspective at a time when many new content creators are coming into the industry, but also, as you alluded to, our world is changing. The way we communicate in a post-COVID world is changing. Our reliance on content is changing. AI writing tools are increasingly part of the conversation, and I believe will be an even more increasing part of the conversation.

We talk about things in marketing that we didn't use to talk about. We talk about mental health challenges, we talk about political issues sometimes, we talk about social movements. There's a whole lot more that falls under the purview of marketing these days that didn't use to.

Even the tasks that we have as marketers have only expanded in the past eight years, it has not constricted at all. In the first edition, I talked about 13 things that marketers write. In the new edition, I identified 20 things that marketers are frequently tasked with creating.

All that to say, there's a whole lot of new stuff that I felt like I wanted to address that wasn't in the first edition, so that's why I metaphorically stripped it down to the studs, rebuilt it, installed a super sweet chandelier in the dining room, it's just gorgeous. I'm very proud of this book. I think it's so much better than the first, and the first was not bad. That's no flex, I'm just acknowledging that it wasn't like it needed it, it was more that our world has changed, so we have moved on and we need a different kind of guide for content marketing in 2022.

George: It's interesting. I hope the Marketing Smarts listeners rewind that section and listen to it again. I think that what just happened in that last section is a direct tie to why so many human beings love Ann Handley. It's this I could just spray it with Febreze and I could vacuum the rug a little bit, but that wouldn't be doing it justice, that's not what they need. What they need is a brand new remodel. The fact that you took the time and effort, and that you even got called crazy, I would say crazy in a good way, is absolutely amazing. Just rewind that spot, come back and catch us here.

Now I want to ask about something that I saw that I was like let's dive into that a little bit. We already talked about the step-by-step writing framework, that GPS that's now 17 steps, but there's a piece where you talk about best-practices and ideas for crafting credible, trustworthy content. What I want you to do is talk a little bit about how creating ridiculously good content and creating trustworthy content collide together.

Ann: I don't think they're even a Venn diagram that overlap a little bit, I think they just make a circle together. Especially in B2B, trust is so paramount to everything that we do. I don't think they collide. I think that they overlap 100%, you can't discern the difference between trustworthy content and good content or ridiculously good content.

We don't sell sticks of gum. We don't sell hairbrushes in the hair aisle at CVS. We sell solutions that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars sometimes. We sell things that help other businesses serve their own customers. If we don't have that level of trust between what we are selling and what our customer is buying, and if we are not being, a word that I hate but I'm going to use it anyway, a word I hate in marketing is authentic. If we are not being authentic, then what are we doing?

So, I think of it as basically a circle, those two things layered on top of one another. Everything that we produce, everything that we write, or publish, or put out on a podcast, or video, or LinkedIn Live, or a TikTok, or anything that we're doing should feel like it is honest and true. That is a way to build trust with our audience even in a tiny little way, through the language that we use, through the information that we give, through who the spokesperson is. All of those things are signals for trust with our audiences.

George: Honest and true and feels like you. I agree. Back in the day, I used to love the word authentic. Then I hate the word authentic. I even love to hate the word authentic at this point because it's just such a buzzword. Being yourself and creating that value in whatever the content. In this case, written content. Usually, I close this with words of wisdom, but I want to ask one other question before we give you an opportunity to dive into that words of wisdom question.

What is an action item, or if not an action item, a belief that you hope every marketer takes away after reading Everybody Writes: The New Improved Go-To Guide to Creating Ridiculously Good Content, an action item or a belief?

Ann: I've heard from a lot of people since the first edition came out who have told me that the first edition of this book really helped them become a better writer. Fundamentally, I think that this new edition will also help you become a better writer. I guess that's a belief and that's just kind of a level set mindset, but it doesn't happen on its own. You cannot become a better writer by just wanting to become one or wishing to become one.

In this second edition, one of the things that I talked about is developing a daily writing habit. I guess you could call it journaling. Although, I hate that word because it feels like a noun that has been forced into servitude as a verb. I just don't like the word, I think it sounds too precious and literary.

Really a daily writing habit is sit down every day, whatever time of day is best for you. For me, it's first thing in the morning when I'm freshest and before everything else crowds into my day and hijacks it. Maybe for you, it's at night or maybe it's lunchtime. It doesn't matter. Find a time of the day in which you can sit down and write something. My preference is longhand because I think it slows down your brain and keeps you connected to the words differently. Write something. You have to stay in it, stay in the practice.

I think the only way to become a better writer is to shift your mindset to, "I am a writer," number one, but secondly to create something every single day. The only way you're going to build muscle is to work the muscle. So, work it every single day, that's your action item.

George: So good. I love it. It's funny because I'll tell you this, my brain may or may not be going in a couple of different directions, but I'll talk to you about that after this episode. What we'll do is we'll dive into the words of wisdom.

The Marketing Smarts listeners have listened this far, they're like, "Yes, I need a go-to guide for creating ridiculously good content." Ann, what are some words of wisdom that you want to leave them with as we exit this podcast episode?

Ann: The best thing that I could say to you is to remind yourself that writing can feel hard sometimes. I was sort of joking about how it can feel like birthing a Volkswagen or birthing a Honda Civic, it's a very hard thing to do. At the same time, I find that the hardest things in life, the hardest things to execute or the hardest things to be a part of, are at the same time often the things that make life worth living, that make our lives feel full, rich, and worthy. It's hard to be a parent. It's hard to be a spouse. It's hard to have responsibility. That's what makes us who we are.

I very much think that writing falls into that. Writing not in a precious way, but writing in a way that tells the world who you are and that allows you to tell your story.

George: Marketing Smarts listeners, did you take lots of notes? I have to ask, what is your one thing, your number one execution opportunity after this podcast? Make sure you reach out and let us know in my inbox or on Twitter using the hashtag #MPB2B.

I also have to ask are you a free member of the MarketingProfs community yet? If not, head over to You won't regret the additional B2B marketing education that you'll be adding to your life.

We'd like it if you could leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast app, but we'd love it if you would share this episode with a coworker or friend. Until we meet in the next episode of the Marketing Smarts Podcast where we talk with Olga Andrienko about visual search and how B2B marketers should be leveraging it for marketing success, I hope you do just a couple of things. One, reach out and let us know what conversation you'd like to listen in on next. Two, focus on getting 1% better at your craft each and every day. Finally, remember to be a happy, helpful, humble B2B marketing human. We'll see you in the next episode of the Marketing Smarts Podcast.

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