Question

Topic: Our Forum

What Can We Do To Minimise Abuse Of This Site?

Posted by steven.alker on 10/24/2007 at 8:38 AM ET 500 Points
The MP exec team, Randall and a few others are very good at stamping out abuse from members without being over critical of newbies and people who make genuine mistakes. For the real offenders, I think that it is better that they be torn to shreds in front of 250,000 other members rather than just deleting their postings, but they are a pain.

Three types of activity which I would term “Site Abuse” seem to have grown, or maybe that’s only my perception:

There’s the A gives 1000 points to B on the understanding that B will give 2000 points to A and so on until their expert points exceed the real leaders, like Michael. We appear to have had two prominent examples of this recently. Doing this devalues the expert status which others might (or might not) trust in for breadth and depth of experience in an answer. It ruins trust for the sake of false status.

Then there are the spammers. It’s hard to see how we can stop this without de-listing our email addresses, which I don’t want to do, but public humiliation seems to be quite appropriate. And fun. Randall’s the master at this.

Then there’s the “advertisers” OK, we all hope or dream that someone will be so impressed with our skills, knowledge and experience that they will wish to award us a contract or offer us a job. But some of the efforts are just plain blatant and wrong. One such is markadler who seems to be cutting and pasting nearly the same “Advert” as an answer to all questions he answers, regardless of relevance. Maybe I’m being unfair on markadler and I’ve only seen the bad ‘uns but it’s a bloody nuisance. See:

https://www.marketingprofs.com/ea/qst_question.asp?qstID=20575#136127

for his effort on my last posting.

I’d like to explore ways we can combat this, but creatively, rather than via a bureaucracy. When I found this site two years ago, I described it to friends as the best place to ask a marketing question or try to answer one – if you didn’t mind being torn to bits for posting stupidity in print. Have we gotten too polite – as you Yanks say?

The market rigging abuse is harder to control and that might need rules. Points are valuable for two reasons, they allow you to ask questions and they reflect some kind of index of how others judge you in the marketing advice you give. The latter may be more important than the former if people are seeking something on their CV, but an urgent question is worth purchasing points for if the need for an answer merits it.

What’s to stop me from opening a market, say on eBay, in MP points? As they will carry expert points they are more valuable than the ones you buy from Val, so we could auction them above the MP Price level. The deal would be that the winner of the auction for, say, 20,000 points would then be the person whose question I accept when I pose a 20,000 pointer question. We could even have a contract through eBay to bind me to the deal.

That’s plain wrong and if you tried a similar trick on a stock market, you’d be done for insider trading and market rigging. I mention this because the scams are becoming more sophisticated as the site moves to become a world leader. We already offer more value than the Chartered Institute of Marketing in the UK and a number of other bodies. When it comes to advice, I think that the forum is second to none as are the blog-spot and the articles.

My personal belief, is that given the potentially large audience, public rebuff, carefully moderated so that no “Mr Angry” oversteps the mark – intentionally or unintentionally, is the best way forward, but we will shortly need mechanisms to catch and stop the scammers, swappers, traders and advertisers.

What are your thoughts over how we could both police this and help the moderator and editor to keep order?

Steve Alker
Unimax Solutions and SalesVision
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RESPONSES

  • Posted by Jay Hamilton-Roth on 10/24/2007 at 1:10 PM Accepted
    How about instituting a spam flag button on posts (similar to the way craigslist does with postings)? The community at large could flag something as spam. The moderator would be the judge of the spam-iness of something, and if they agree, they'd remove the post, inform the poster, and potentially censor or enforce comment moderation for the offender.
  • Posted by jpoyer on 10/24/2007 at 6:48 PM Accepted
    It's been a long time since I signed up -- so I don't remember what kind of email I got or terms I had to agree to ... maybe when people sign up there should be a warning about abuse and what will happen when they abuse the forum like that (if there isn't already). Then if they are caught abusing the system, then they get one warning and are banned.

    I definitely think there is a big third reason in addition to the two that Steve mentioned about why the points are important ... I think if it had not been for the points, I may not have ever started posting and I may never have become a paid member, and I don't think I would be as involved as I have been. The whole first year I was a member, I never posted and barely read the forum questions and answers.

    When I first joined, it was because someone had forwarded me a newsletter -- and I found it useful. I wasn't interested in paying for membership, and I wasn't interested in attending seminars or really anything outside of the newsletter.

    Once I started posting, and when I was awarded points -- In a emotional sort of way, I felt that my opinion had value. I started in the area where I felt like I knew the most -- website critique. As I grew more confident and felt like I had things to offer in other areas, I started to care more about my points and getting to that 2000 point level so I could be listed as an expert -- well ... It was a nice achievement, and something I wanted to work toward.

    (And I must say, it's kind of a bummer when you get awarded points for a question because the person who urgently needed an answer never bothered to come back and close the question. Although I do think that is a good addition to keep old questions from mucking up the current questions.)

    I can honestly say that the first time I "got points" from a question -- it was.... well, kind of exciting. Congratulations from Marketing Profs! And being the competitive person that I am, sometimes, even now, the prospect of adding points and getting higher on that list of the top 100 gives me that extra push to answer just another question or two more before I hit the sack.

    I think there are enough of us who really care about the stability and credibility of this forum that we can maintain a stable environment - I have reported a blatant link dropper in the past, but it felt too much like tattling, and I haven't done that since.

    Sometimes I wonder if people care about the points as much as I do on a personal level -- as I have posted what I think are pretty decent 1000+ point questions from my hard-earned points, and I get very little response from the top half of the top 100. There are a few people who I find myself wholeheartedly agreeing with on a regular basis, Kathleen, Randall, ChrisB, Stevea, Michael, etc., and I usually have "Yeah -- what Jay said" as part of my post somewhere, but for the most part, I think the setup with the milestones and longevity being rewarded will wash out those people who are just here for a quick points rush.

    I do like the idea of having a system of flagging spammy or questionable posts -- maybe as another milestone -- so when you get above 30K points (or whatever level), you have the option to flag or report abuse.

    We could also create a system check to alert moderators if a person is climbing the ranks a little to quickly -- just to flag them so the moderators can read over that person's posts.

    Another thing we could do is follow google's recommendation to add no-follow tags to the URLs, so they don't get followed back to search engines, but frankly, I don't like that idea too much because it penalizes those naturally occurring links that are really valid-- when you send someone to look at something on your site that is really relevant and useful, it should count as a "link" from a search engine standpoint. Maybe add the no-follow tag for posts when people have less than a certain number of points. ... but not publicize that, because spammers won't waste their time if they think their links aren't being counted as "countable" backlinks.

    Just my 2 cents anyway.

    Jennifer
    XPRT Creative
  • Posted on 10/25/2007 at 2:17 AM Accepted
    Another thought is that I was surprised how easy it was for me to sign up without having to verify my email address.

    That will cut down on people creating multiple fake accounts and giving themselves points, spamming, etc.
  • Posted by steven.alker on 10/25/2007 at 7:37 AM Author
    Feedback time:

    BARQ: No, I never thought you overstepped the line on the real estate/ tag line / no visible personal effort applied / problem.

    There are many ways of expressing a desire for a member to put a bit more thought into a question and expand on a bit of background, but I don’t want to be seen to put off time-pressured executives and new members from placing a posting and becoming a member of the site long term. When I joined, I fully expected to get a roasting if I behaved stupidly – I’d tracked the site for about a year before signing up and yes, if those days were a bit wilder than now, Lord alone knows what the “Wild-West” days were like, referred to by NuCoPro below! Personally, I think that sometimes I’ve got off lightly given the twaddle I’ve written from time-to-time or answers I’ve given when I’ve not read the question properly or---

    Yes, ridicule, properly moderated is the way to handle abusers. Only very rarely does a member receive a WMMA Homework Roasting for us to discover that it was a legitimate business assignment, presumably handed to the poster by some tosspot who’s just got his MBA and wants to show off his knowledge of TLA’s (Three Letter Acronyms, for those without MBA’s) and an apology usually follows immediately, with a bonus that loads of additional people pile in to offer advice.

    Nice thoughts but I didn’t think that there was such a thing as bad publicity in marketing – or is that just me being old fashioned? I might be looking at the Virtue of Victorian Values in Modern Business (Yours for only £29.99 + £300 P&P, reduced to $1.99 if you give me your bank account details, PIN number and password) but I’m not really all that fusty!

    Best wishes

    Steve Alker
    SalesVision
  • Posted by steven.alker on 10/25/2007 at 10:00 AM Author
    Late breaking news:

    Are we missing a trick or two of the $$$ or £££ kind here. ukstudent.coursework4u has just responded to an old homework question where the questioner went away to think about it in more detail.

    https://www.marketingprofs.com/ea/qst_question.asp?qstID=20510#136234

    Now ukstudent.coursework4u most nobly referred the Malaysian student to a free page of SWOT analysis explanations. The site it’s on is one which sells “Model Answers” to exam questions. Whilst they have an extensive “Terms of use” page:

    https://www.coursework4you.co.uk/diskl.htm

    I’m always made a little queasy by this because regardless of the stated intentions and legal caveats it’s ultimately used to cheat. It makes me queasy because I’m not making money out of it, because whenever I did it at St Andrews I got caught out and punished and because other people did it and didn’t get caught out and they now hold high office in Westminster. And no I won’t tell or sell!

    So maybe we should be following the example of the above site and profiting from Lazy Students and Lazy Real Estate Brokers. After all, if they can charge £100 (That’s $200) for a model answer to an essay and £500 for an outline thesis, we should be able to make a fortune with a clear conscience. As long as we have those terms and those caveats, I won’t lose any sleep over it. Will I?

    Steve

  • Posted by Deremiah *CPE on 10/25/2007 at 12:52 PM Accepted
    Hey Stevea,

    well I think you're doing what we should do to minimize these kind of issues. I think we need more profs responding so I'm thinking of opening up an URGENT question on this very subject in hopes that we can keep this discussion open. Next we should just call an online meeting and deal with it using tough love.

    1.) We've acknowleged that there is a problem.

    2.) We're saying we are tired of it.

    3.) We need to invite Val into an open discussion offline via email or online. So who wants to send Val an email?

    Thanks a lot Steve and Randall. Feel free to include me in any future correspondance.

    Your Servant,

    Deremiah *CPE (Customer Passion Evangelist)
  • Posted by Valerie Witt on 10/26/2007 at 1:22 AM Accepted
    Hi all. Lots of great observations and ideas here. Thanks so much for taking the time to share them.

    We do have some of the capabilities you've described here (like spam flags). But the admin functions are limited to a small group of "deputy moderators" who have been with us since the beginning. As Gary suggested to me in an email, I think it's time we expand that group.

    I've contacted Aaron, our CIO, to find out what we need to do to increase the number of deputy moderators. I'll update you when I know more.

    Val
  • Posted by Susan Oakes on 10/26/2007 at 2:35 AM Accepted
    Hi Steve,

    I have only recently been a paid member and I look at forum daily and as stated by someone else if I can't add to the discussion then I don't post a reply. Although I have been in marketing a long time I do learn from the expert replies and it sets the mind thinking.

    I have been suprised by the sheer number of those wanting answers to tag lines, names etc without having done any homework regarding positioning etc versus true marketing questions.

    As a suggestion for those of you who started this great forum, perhaps look back as to the original intent and set the criteria so that if a question does not meet the standard it doesn't get posted or in the case of student questions they get a standard answer. I am not sure how complicated this is?

    Regards,

    Susan


  • Posted by steven.alker on 10/26/2007 at 8:33 AM Author
    Naming and Tag Lines

    I do think that we must be careful to ensure that well thought out requests for help with naming don’t go into the bin and that we don’t put people off (That’s posters of questions and answers). There are a couple of reasons for this.

    The questioner who explains their problem, gives some background and has an urgent request - like Gerard (GR) in

    https://www.marketingprofs.com/ea/qst_question.asp?qstID=20641#136265

    Especially when he’s gone to the trouble to buy additional points (The guy must have spent a small fortune on them!)

    Secondly, there are a lot of members out there itching to practice their creative techniques on real-life situations and to deny them the opportunity to do it, excel or make asses of themselves would be churlish. We might end up suppressing the next Ian Ogilvy.

    Caution again calls. Oh dear, how complex this all becomes.

    By the way, I’m not involved in very many other public forum-spaces, but those into which I dip from time to time can be incredibly bitchy, insulting, vitriolic and almost violent. Others are so sweet tongued, you get the impression that they are run along North Korean lines where to disagree with the policies of the Great Leader and His / Her acolytes in punishable by 10 years re-education in a paddy field.

    We don’t want to end up at either of those extremes.

    Steve
  • Posted by Valerie Witt on 10/26/2007 at 9:54 AM Accepted
    Hi gang. I agree with Steve's last post about taglines.

    The reason you see so many tagline posts (and real estate posts and student questions) is probably due to organic SEO. The community here has created high search rankings for KHE on certain topics. You're noticing the drawbacks. On the positive side, these topics are drawing new members to MP/KHE, important in counterbalancing attrition and maintaining a vibrant community.

    Of course, many of these newbies do not become valuable contributors. Perhaps most do not. But some do. So while we do want to curb the problems they sometimes create, we probably don't want to shut off the flow completely.

    I heard from Aaron this morning that there are 18 folks (besides staff) with deputy moderator privileges. Probably several of these members are less active these days. We're looking at different parameters for extending the group. I'll keep you posted.

    Val

    P.S. I may be offline til Tue (on deadline today, then traveling). I'll invite new moderators via email when I return.
  • Posted on 10/28/2007 at 3:42 AM Accepted
    Hi,

    Just wondering which of the problems is the most severe one: 1) the A to B point traders, 2) the spammers, 3) the advertisers, 4) the moderator capacity, 5) others not mentioned so far?

    Or rephrased: if we could solve only one for a reason, which one is it?


    May be it’s helpful to give some feedback, related to (potential) abuse, as a newcomer to this forum.

    I think the point system is a good idea to visualize members expertise. However, I made a few posts, where I thought I might add value (hey, I’m a newcomer to marketing), also in mind to raise my point level a little bit: I don’t want to post a question worth 7 points or so ... Compared to other forums to me the balance appears to be quite good in terms of contribution, content and the way people talk to each other (Steve mentioned the 2 extremes).

    I’m happy to visit this site and to learn. I was looking for the most experienced people in marketing, willing to share, and they seem to be here. I’d regret if I’d be deleted one day.

    About the bio proposal I understand the need. I’m frequently looking for the same information myself prior to replies. However, I deliberately decided to post less about myself on the Internet for a simple reason: the Internet is like an open post card (at least for the IT-experts) and it does not forget. It does not forget. Even the deleted posts, mentioned earlier, are already stored and copied on some server on this globe (see e.g. https://www.archive.org/web/web.php where you can even navigate past versions of this site to some degree). My remark is less about fear or hiding some secret and more about being cautious. I made some people think about it after looking at the information search engines provide about their names. For example, I could invite about 50 people, having my name and sharing similar interests. It doesn’t work always, but you can extract profiles about individuals quite easily. This may be good, may be bad, it depends on the researchers objectives.


    Looking for solutions, assuming sound analysis already been done, we might learn from other websites.

    Which site has the same problem, even a bigger problem, and how did they solve it?

    Amazon comes into my mind with their critique system (there will be more sites). I never recognized spammers there, and I almost always ignored the “was this contribution helpful for you?” (their qualification system). I use the rating information, especially the lowest ranks.


    Hope this helps.
    Michael
  • Posted by mgoodman on 10/28/2007 at 11:36 AM Accepted
    It's interesting that I don't share the concern you're all expressing. I figure that the vast majority of people who post a question here are really in search of an answer, not gaming the system.

    And I think the MP staff does a decent job of policing the obvious abusers. There's even a convenient "report inappropriate activity" option in the "Moderator Help" section, if the staff misses a few.

    Do we get a lot of real estate questions? Yes. Some are honest pleas for help; others are just looking for free taglines, or whatever. We're free to ignore them if we want, or to gently explain that strategy needs to precede execution.

    I guess what I'm really suggesting is that the system works pretty well overall. It's not difficult to spot problem questions and move on to more "legitimate" questions.

    And, as for the point swap scheme, I never considered that it was happening. (OK, so I'm naive.) If it ever does become a real problem, I'm sure the staff will find a way to take care of it.

    I think the overwhelming majority of us contribute to and learn from the forum for our own enrichment (non-monetary), and it's a distraction to spend too much time on identifying and policing the few who abuse the system or take unfair advantage of what's offered here.

    Sorry to be the contrarian, but I don't see the problem as being worth much of our time/attention. I'd rather spend it on marketing issues ... much more enjoyable.
  • Posted by iFocus on 10/29/2007 at 1:25 AM Accepted
    I would suggest to keep the site as it is. Try to make the site more 'secure' and you might end up having more spammers who just for the fun of it would come to mess around.
    I am not a marketing professional but enjoy helping others, if my postings are of any help.
    I signed up last year and can't recall exactly the process. I believe that new registrants should not be able to post a question on the day of their registration but after having gained a few points (125? 250?)answering others' questions.
  • Posted by Tracey on 10/29/2007 at 8:31 PM Accepted
    I didn't realize there's a spam flag available... where is it? I'll definitely start using it.

    I agree that bios should be mandatory.

    Lastly, this is a great forum, and overall, the abuses are a very minor annoyance in comparison with the advice and thought-sharing going on.
  • Posted by steven.alker on 10/30/2007 at 5:01 AM Author
    Thanks to everyone who has contributed. I’d like to thank you all personally, individually and on closing this post later today, I will – even if it takes a day to list ‘em!

    I too would like to offer my support and thanks to the editor and moderators who do a fantastic job – both in keeping the site sane but also allowing a level of member participation which is unheard of on other professional sites.

    This site has the potential for something truly great. We are on the cusp of a social and business networking phenomenon – a web of professional contacts which needs to be organised and, well, verified, somehow. We need to be able to do this in novel ways and to keep the flexibility inherent in a small organisation present and working well in the larger organisation we appear to have become and the even larger one we will aspire to become.

    We need to bear in mind that we will have to keep this level of effort up – staff – contributing members and those who want to derive some benefit - at some time or another in the future, for business, academic or plain old purposes of fun. Remember, there are those who pay their subscriptions, blog and use the site whilst perhaps only glancing at the forum from time to time until that moment occurs – “I need an answer to a question and I know where to go to get the answer.”

    I think that the questions I was asking myself when I wrote this posting was, “Can we continue to grow, lightly regulated given the scope for abuse?” or “Will the site owners have to produce an ever deeper level of bureaucracy to survive against the wilful intent of a minority to spoil things?”

    I feel confident that the answer is the former and that the dissent into Chaos and Bickering we are seeing on Wikipedia or the singular, but effective, commercialism, of ecademy where Thomas and Penny rule pretty well supreme (And why not, they invented it, they paid for it, they own it!?) will not be replicated here.

    I think that what makes it work so well is the curious blend of commercial and academic thought that is brought together here. We appear, as a bunch to be commercially rather hard headed, yet strangely idealistic. How wonderful!

    I’m not silly enough to think that I have a share in the ownership of MarketingProfs but, I am reasonable sure that we all feel that we have a share in the value of membership.

    Long may that continue!

    Best wishes


    Steve Alker
    Unimax Solutions, SalesVision and a new entity yet to be announced which ties up everything!!!!!
  • Posted on 10/30/2007 at 6:15 AM Accepted
    More verifications may be good to help reduce the abuse.
    Or even go to the extent of removing an account.
  • Posted by Harry Hallman on 10/30/2007 at 7:57 AM Accepted
    One thing that bothers me is that anyone can ask a question without any profile showing. Linked in requires that you be signed in and that your questions and answers have your profile link.

    While linked in is a bit of a wild west show at least you can identify the shooters and avoid them if you choose. Perhaps if that were required here we woudn't have to be playing detective.
  • Posted by steven.alker on 10/30/2007 at 10:19 AM Author
    Dear Undhunjin and NuCoPro

    Let’s get one thank you out in a timely fashion

    Yes, more verification is helpful, but it is to an extent, it is self policing. One of the encouraging strands here has been for all members to fill in more of their Biographies. Of course, it could all be lies, but the staff and site members have a curious way of finding that out.

    As for removing accounts, I believe that it goes on all the time for all types of abuse. Carrie (Moderator) has written above that she’s removed the pestilent markadler of impeccable poor spelling and grammar fame. Try his name on my last posting – zilch, gone.

    Of course, people are warned first and asked nicely, but if they persist, then there is a sanction which I understand is not lightly used

    So step 1 for Undhunjin and probably 100,000 other members, please fill in your biography so that we know a bit about you!

    As with anything in marketing which requires participation, the less the visitor needs to do to register, from his or her point of view, the better. I think that there must be some balance struck between the laudable desire to increase membership by making it as easy as possible and the need to have some public details displayed in order to participate in asking questions. On other sites where I’m a member, I have to give rather a lot of technical detail if a wish to post technical questions. I still have to give a fair bit to post replies.

    Maybe that’s a possible differentiation – more details to ask questions, but a minimum, lower level to comment and bare outline as we have now just to look. Whatever we do, it mustn’t get in the way of commercial value of the site which presumably is just like any other website; determined by the quality of the content, the number of people who view it and the number of people who are members.

    After all, if Allen Weiss took the bother to put this place together in the first place, he presumably needs to protect his considerable investment in the site by making it as attractive as possible to newcomers, whilst making it equally attractive for them to hang around and participate.

    Balance, balance, balance. This is as bad as setting up marketing strategies!

    Best wishes


    Steve Alker
  • Posted by CTO on 10/30/2007 at 10:36 AM Accepted
    We appreciate all your comments and concerns.

    We're going to look into adding a moderator to help with the site maintenance and new user education.

    Unfortunately, creating requisites for new users is not something we're going to be able to add to the forum. The KHE grows daily, and the growth is what makes it so useful and full of information.

    The concerns mentioned are very common in a forum of this type, especially one with a points system, and we appreciate your help in educating new users and providing solutions to those that need your help. They wouldn't be here if they didn't need your help, and help is what the experts are so good at providing.

    There's always going to be people that abuse the system, and we just need to deal with them as situations arise.

    Thanks for all your help and participation in making KHE a great place to communicate, network and get answers from experts in the marketing industry.

    We'll be keeping an eye on these issues, and make changes as necessary to continue the success of the KHE.

    Thanks.
  • Posted by Valerie Witt on 10/31/2007 at 11:57 PM Accepted
    Hi gang! Just a quick update on the "deputy moderators" idea.

    Carrie and I are pulling together a list of candidates. Folks with lots of points and recent participation. We're cross-referencing it with the original group of volunteer moderators and de-duping.

    Over the next week, Carrie will email those who meet the criteria, inviting you to participate. If you decide to opt-in, you'll have access to a couple new admin buttons you can use to flag problems and re-classify student questions.

    No obligation to participate, of course! But we're happy to put the tools in your hands, if you would like to help.

    Best,

    Val
  • Posted by Deremiah *CPE on 11/1/2007 at 7:43 AM Accepted
    Hi Val,

    your comment is so well appreciated as even a couple more deputy moderators is most definitely helpful...I'll shoot you an additional 1000 points for that response but don't tell anybody...it's our secret...(LOL).

    Your Servant,

    Deremiah *CPE (Customer Passion Evangelist)

    PS
    a little laugh
    a little fun
    a little work &
    it's all done.
  • Posted by Neil on 11/8/2007 at 7:08 PM Accepted
    I have only one request. Make a rule against tag line questions and make it clear to people when they try to post that tag line questions are not allowed.

    Please delete them when people post them.

    If tag line questions were forbidden, this forum would be 10 times more interesting. Removing clutter makes room for more interesting things to spring up.
  • Posted by steven.alker on 11/9/2007 at 5:33 AM Author
    Dear Friends and Colleagues

    Thank you all for contributing to such a vibrant discussion.

    Normally I go through each response and offer some comment, but had some problems with my eyesight to contend with and it’s taken up rather a lot of my time with doctors and ophthalmologists appointments.

    Once I’ve got this pesky thing sorted, I’ll reply to everyone in my usual manner but in the meanwhile a huge dose of thanks.

    This site really matters to a hell of a lot of people and I think that your responses show the reason that it will go from strength to strength.



    Yours Sincerely


    Steve Alker (One-Eyed-Pete)

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