Question

Topic: Taglines/Names

Slogan Fee For A Med-size Virtual Server Tech Co.?

Posted by Anonymous on 2/26/2010 at 8:07 PM ET 250 Points
Here's my dilemma: I'm an established freelance designer/illustrator with my own corporate clients. A new friend of mine that just joined her friends' small marketing co. asked me to help them with freelance design for one of their clients. I'm not really used to working as a subcontractor to another firm, but I said yes, as they needed help quickly as their artist turned out to be unreliable. I was to work directly with the marketing co., never directly with their client.

We have a verbal agreement for me to provide subcontracting services for $75 an hour (my usual rate is $125), and I've been helping them with a couple of rush projects for their client, an established, small-to-medium size tech co., operating in the multi-million dollar virtual server field. They asked me to give guidelines on what certain tasks (copywriting, web home page design, brochure design, etc.) would cost in numbers of hours, one of which was a logo update for said client. I listed 25 hrs for the logo update, as there was lots of other work to round this out.

The client said no, they didn't think the logo needed an update just yet, but among the other tight deadline tasks of designing a new powerpoint layout, the marketing co. lamented that the client really needed a logo update so everything else would look better. I suggested that I could do that on spec, and mentioned offhand that if the client liked it we could discuss compensation, but I didn't expound further on that. It's all pretty informal at this point.

During a conference call with the marketing co. and the writer they hired, they discussed a need for a new slogan for the company as well. They asked me to submit any ideas I had, so I said I'll see what I can do. I did the logo, added my suggestion for a nice two-word tagline, and submitted it to them to run past the client. The client liked the logo, and was going to shop it to the partners. Partners liked it. I said "ok, let's talk about compensation" and they said, "yeah, you said 25 hours." I said, "Well, that was when it was part of the package. This was on spec, so we need to discuss a price commensurate with the client's size and use."

They didn't like that at all, saying that the client already agreed to it at the proposed hourly rate and since I didn't really make it crystal clear I agreed to let it go at that price. They came back in a few days and asked me to make changes per the client at no more than 10 additional hours. I agreed. I did the changes and realized that in the discussion about the logo, they never told me if the client was for certain going with my suggestion for a tagline or one the writer suggested. I think the client likes my slogan. When I submitted the changes on the logo, I inquired about the slogan, and said that since this was MY suggestion for the slogan, if the company wants to use it, then that is definitely (to me) a separate element aside from the logo design that needs to addressed for reasonable compensation.

I haven't heard back from them yet today, but I feel they're going to say that they've already submitted it to the client, we've agreed on the set hourly compensation for this logo and they feel it's now part of the logo as submitted. They haven't actually paid me a dime yet, so is this slogan still technically mine to decide on what I want to charge for it, and if they or their client says no, can I (or should I) refuse to let their client use it?

If they do want it, and agree to a reasonable fee, what should I specifically charge for writing a two word company slogan for this type of client? What should the subcontracted logo redo have actually cost? Any advice is helpful.
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RESPONSES

  • Posted on 2/26/2010 at 8:35 PM Moderator
    Everything is negotiable. There is no set price.

    The real lesson here is to be very clear/explicit up-front, and to get an advance payment before you submit any work. Some consultants ask for 50% in advance. On longer projects, it could be 40% in advance, 40% after initial deliverables, and 20% on completion. Or it could be 33/33/34.

    However the real problem is the fact that you're working on an hourly basis instead of charging for deliverables. When you do the latter, it's easier to charge for deliverables that were not included in the original proposal. You're not negotiating your time or your billing rate. You're negotiating based on the value of what you're delivering.

    In this case, it sounds like you've put yourself in a very weak position -- especially if you want a continuing relationship with your friend's marketing company (or your friend). Do your best, but be prepared to take a beating on this one ... and make sure you've learned your lesson so this doesn't happen again.
  • Posted on 2/26/2010 at 8:42 PM Moderator
    P.S. The number of words in the slogan is not relevant. If anything 2-word slogans should cost more than longer slogans, but that's not where you want to go. You are not charging by the word, and you shouldn't be charging by the hour either.

    What is that slogan worth to the client? How much are they going to make if your slogan really catches on with their customers and it increases their sales by 25% for the next 10 years?

    I'd start by saying that slogans usually cost $5-10,000, and that you think the mid-point ($7,500) would be fair in this case. If they think that's too much, you can either (a) negotiate a fee you are willing to accept, or (b) tell them to find someone else to create the slogan.

    It's too bad you've put yourself in this position. There's no good way out of this that I can see. Make sure you've learned the lesson well.
  • Posted on 2/26/2010 at 8:52 PM Author
    You're right, mgoodman, I am in weak position, except for the fact that if this doesn't work out, I won't lose the friend, just the gig. I usually don't have an issue working at that rate, but at this point I feel I should probably rescind my hourly estimate sheet and quote on deliverables.

    Phil, a 25 hr logo redo includes research, sketches, several fully realized AI solutions and meticulous consideration of every detail before the best solution is submitted.

    I appreciate the commentary on the situation I've found myself in, however, this still doesn't answer my main questions: Is this slogan still technically mine to decide on what I want to charge for it, and if they or their client says no, can I (or should I) refuse to let their client use it? If so, what should I charge for a two word slogan for this size client?

    https://www.technologycityinc.com/slogan-&-tagline-writing/two-words.ht...

    This site suggests a fee of $2,000. Is this appropriate for this type of client?
  • Posted on 2/26/2010 at 9:03 PM Accepted
    There is no set price. If you like $2,000 and can get it, then that's the price. If you want $7,500 and can get it, then that's the price. The determining factor is what it's worth to you and to the client.

    As for who "owns" the slogan, I'd say that at this point it belongs to the client. Your friend's company delivered it to them and you never really owned it to begin with. You were delivering a work product, and they paid for it (whether or not you actually received the money).

    Good luck!
  • Posted by Chris Blackman on 2/27/2010 at 12:55 AM Accepted
    Why on earth would anyone ever agree to do consulting work on an cost per unit of time-based rate?

    The whole point of using a consultant is to access skills the organisation does not have on tap. Employees work for pay per hour. The consultant doesn't have to - and should not.

    Charging on an hourly basis provides such an obvious conflict of interest to the client no ethical consultant should be agreeing to work that way. The conflict is the client wants the job done in the least possible time (=cost) while it is in the consultant's interest to take as long as possible (= greater revenue).

    Selling your output or even the results obtained by the client is the only sane way to go. New logo? $X,000 - if it takes a year, it's the consultants problem. If it only takes an hour because the consultant is brilliant, more power to them. Slogan? $Y,000. And 50% upfront. Balance on completion. Or whatever it takes.

    I heartily recommend you read Value Based Fees by Alan Weiss (see https://bit.ly/cg9nVq). Once you truly get the concept, you will never look back.

    Oh, and do get agreements in writing. As Sam Goldwyn said, "A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on".
  • Posted on 2/27/2010 at 11:57 PM Author
    Thank you gentlemen for your concise and informative answers. I've purchased the book by Alan Weiss and will be reading it cover to cover.
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