Know-How Exchange : Our Forum

I'm sorry, the previous answer hit the max length for the points allotted. Please deposit 250 more points for 250 more words.

Peter's thoughts reminded me of a recent interview with Dan Ariely (author: Predictably Irrational) about the topic of "default values". People often simply take default values at face value. So, if the default value was increased, we'll more frequently see higher point valued questions.

I think the default value is the issue here. I didn't know that was how it was set up.

Maybe the logic behind higher/lower point values shouldn't be degree of "difficulty" or "importance," either.

Maybe it should be how much time and thought people expect to be put into the answers.

25: A quick, cursory review and response from 1-2 people.

500: We parachute in a dozen battle-scarred professionals willing to risk their lives for your cause.

OK, maybe we don't need parachutes...

Cor! - dear fellow members of the forum - as usual I'm bombed out by your response and there are some good points which should merit debate of their own or on their own.

I'll go through the responses one-by one this afternoon and see if we can stitch a picture together that both explains and illuminates for the future.
Steve

Interbox – I’d be more inclined to believe the “Less interested in the points argument” if there were at least as many who are just a bit too laid back and if they feel that an answer is worth it then they’ll make their point, reward or no reward.

Then there are our marathon runners who seem to be able to do a 100M sprint every time they feel a need for an extra 20,000 points in their box.

Do you all realize that if any of these expert people (me included) were to partake in the latest, flattest, and most deceitful form of pyramid selling or MLM or “Internet Marketing” or “Information Marketing” as it’s called these days, they could cruise along on about $200K a year of other peoples undeliverable hopes and expectations and then do a $50K sprint to pay for a new power boat next week!

Steve Alker
Xspirt.com

Wayde – yes I toyed with the idea of offering 25 points or doing a deal with Carrie to offer 2.5 points, but then I thought “Too many of you have my private details”

On other forums, techies are shouting about how “Frank-Nerd-III of SQL Answers” has just passed his 3M point and by the way, if you want your poxy question even looking at, forget detailed answers for questions offering less than 500 points.

And they have a comparable member base with us with a smallish percentage who offer most of the support and I guess reap most of the visible and the invisible benefits and the ones who answer a point every quarter, because they knew the answer and wanted to share it.

That the honcho with 15M points is unassailable does not seem to deter the occasional questioner or occasional answerer. It’s because captain 15M is around that they trust the place – if respondents write rubbish, he and a dozen others at the top will say so to the benefit of the questioner and the loss of reputation of the spoiler.

Steve Alker
In-Need-of-Analysis
Xspirt

Wayde – again, the Forex analogy is good, but I can’t bring myself to cut off mid answer and Randall (WMMA) has threatened and fumed but as far as I can see has rarely done it!

Now that answer to your CRM question which was costing you such a lot of money, “The SQL coding in line 475 should have referenced Line 435----- Oops out of points”

Phil (as in Grisolia)

I can’t help but agree that we continue to give 250 point answers regardless of the parsimony on the posters and that you are an excellent example of this trend. It’s not that we don’t care about the points; I think that we do, just look at the doors which are opened by mentioning that you are on the “Top 100 table” for MarketingProfs, probably the world’s biggest marketing on-line community.

But that isn’t it alone – we all have the means to promote regardless of this site. Maybe it is the challenge of keeping sharp and the implicit threat that mgoodman or WMMA will tell you, out loud, that you are talking a bag of Sh11t that keeps the quality as high as it is.

For a point of reference, friends who are senior members of the UK based Chartered Institute of Marketing think that we give them a decent run for their money, both in terms of value and of quality.

Best and dearest wishes

Steve Alker
Xspirt

Karen

You really do have a point with tangled subjects where the value of the answer – if you get it right – is disproportionate to the points.

On a personal basis, I was “ejected” into the top 100 without noticing or thinking it important. When I got onto the top 25 it was more of the same, until a friend who is not an MP contributor (Or if he is, he does it under a pseudonym!) pointed out to me that it was something of value to be voted on as “Good” by, at the time, 270,000 subscribers. OK only a small percentage are active on the forum, but I’d still guess that the KHE is where the majority of people enter the wonderful world of MarketingProfs.

Whether we should pay subscribers more for complex answers is a question I will leave open – to my mind, involvement regardless of reward is worth it in its own right.

Best wishes


Steve Alker
Xspirt

Michael – A point is a point and in a free market is valued how we ourselves value them. That said, it speaks paragraphs for members who will offer half a page of opinion in exchange the possibility of a couple of points. I guess that speaks strongly for the ethos of the Forum as a whole and probably says something about how much it is valued as part of the whole MP experience.

As for no cash value in points, have you ever tried trading in them? In the past I’ve seen subscribers offer each other 500 points in return for the same favour so they could climb the greasy pole! It’s never worked thanks to the attentiveness of our moderators!

I’d be all in favour of having an open market for points, being a free market, sound money kind of guy, but I do wonder where it would end up. To be of eventual value, we would need to establish a market value for MP opinions and the right to state them without paying for the privilege. Next we would need a browsing public of about 3M visitors to take it seriously. As it has taken the founders several years to build up a subscriber base in excess of 300,000 I think that might be asking too much.

Maybe we reflect opinion for the sake of the members than try to create it!

Steve Alker
Xspirt

You ask:

mgoodman: isn't it a breach of etiquette to hijack a thread and bring up other issues?

My response:

Not sure about that. Usually the "hijacking" isn't intentional. It results from commenting on something someone volunteered that isn't directly germane to the original question. For example, someone might ask about a tagline, and someone else suggests a tagline that suggests the product is cheap. Then someone starts talking about pricing strategy and whether it's really a good idea to refer to it in a tagline. And then that detours into a discussion of pricing strategy -- and the discussion is "hijacked."

I think that kind of "hijacking" is actually good for the KHE and for the participating professionals who collectively have a lot of valuable marketing experience. The problem, if you can call it that, is that we're having our discussion at the expense of the original questioner. They came for a tagline, and we're exploring the role and impact of pricing strategy on the marketing mix.

A breach of etiquette? Not really sure. What do others think?


P.S. Is it a breach of etiquette for someone to post a question and then abandon it? We get a lot more of that than we do of hijacking.

If it's intended to be helpful, I don't think it matters too much.

And that is the responsibility of the OP...if the respondents are getting off topic, s/he can always say, "This is really great stuff, but I'll ask politely that we redirect the conversation towards my original question. That's where I need your help."

The OP is in essence the mini-moderator of the topic. And if they've checked out and no longer care about what is being discussed, then the conversation should stop altogether anyway.

I like Dave's (telemoxie's) thoughts on points, too. A lot.

Note: This discussion, originally about all the 25-point questions, has now been hijacked and turned into a discussion on the etiquette of hijacking.

Is that improper etiquette?

Yes, yes it is.

Someone get a moder--

Oh...never mind!

Jay Hamilton-Roth wrote:

Peter's thoughts reminded me of a recent interview with Dan Ariely (author: Predictably Irrational) about the topic of "default values". People often simply take default values at face value. So, if the default value was increased, we'll more frequently see higher point valued questions.

Ariely also cites the avoidance of extremes. Most people won't order the most (or least) expensive item on the menu. So if there were no default at all, given the range available, most questioners would not opt for 25 points when that's the minimum. They also don't usually go for 500+ points either, unless they are "regulars" or think their question is really difficult/important.

sorry, I was trying to make a joke...

... I was trying to make a comment about hijacking discussions, and then hijack the discussion... I probably should've use some sort of an emoticon...

I have seen many situations where a person will ask a question, and when you try to read between the lines, it seems that they are ignoring the most important issues. I think that one of the most important things which we can do is to help people focus on the most important issues, and to help them solve their most pressing problems, rather than simply asking their question.

For the paranormal event, maybe they could get some of the participants to foresee the lottery winning numbers for next week, and fund the event with the winnings. :)

Hi Everyone - Thanks for your patience and a special note of thanks to Carrie for letting everyone know why I was away. Never having had to grow up I tried to have a mid life crisis and failed - went off to see what happened when you lived in the grottiest of cheap, cheap rooms and mixed with "bums", unemployed guys, homeless people, penniless musicians and a pastor I met.

I listened to a lot of live music from local bands for the first time in 20 years and discovered that the most dispossessed in our society can be and usually are caring, loving and are prepared to look out for some middle class guy who seemed to be having a few doubts about life, the universe and everything.

I wasn't do-gooding or handing out money to alcoholics and addicts, just trying to understand how they survive and what if anything made them any different to me.

The answer was not much - they showed me how to survive and looked out for me if potential trouble loomed despite speaking the same language but being divided by a posh accent! It was a life changing experience which I will put to the good of what I do in future.

Steve
Now for some feedback!

Dave (Telemoxie) Now that is a superb idea. Marketers doing research about the value of their own marketing products is about as rare as rocking horse shit! Yes we should survey new members and yes we should encourage new members to post a profile and yes we should offer a points incentive for both these things.

I also think that we should encourage a return to the courtesy of days past – not the Wild West Garry Rosensteel often refers to, but when I joined. About 10 people from newbie’s to top experts actually welcomed me amongst the answers. We ought to encourage that again and if in this “Get your money world” (From Candy man) we offer yet more points for greeters and welcomers, so be it.

I think that your ideas are verging on the brilliant and that MP should clearly appoint you to their board!

Steve Alker
Xspirt

Jay, I agree with most of what you have said – points for time spent rather than value imparted is a good idea and it could also be set out more clearly on the page where we post questions. I personally think that we miss out on many opportunities to engage users and to encourage upgrades, participation and enthusiasm by hiding what we want members to do rather too well.

One of my clients has a website with an enquiry form. He doesn’t want trite enquiries or spam so it is in an odd place. In fact it is so well hidden that you would need the exploring skills of Drs Livingstone and Stanley to find it. I challenged a few sales and marketing director pals to find it within 15 minutes (They are all potential customers or the client) No one succeeded!!!

The upshot is that we will be soliciting contact details and other information from visitors from all over the site. Thanks to the brilliant idea of the client’s web designers, Digital Paint of Northwich UK, with whom I’ve never worked before, we will also not be littering each and every page with a form, neither will we be encouraging trite enquiries or spam.

For heavens sake – we are probably the most influential marketing site in the world with the best marketing forum in the world. Why the hell don’t we apply our own medicine to these matters rather than hammering on about Twitter and Blogs and Social Media to the detriment of the Forum and traditional marketing?

Steve
Xspirt

Peter – not often I do this but I partially disagree – having 25 point questions where it clearly states that you won’t get much of an answer would be my preferred solution.

I do however that they are probably the types who will spend their points and not return. That’s bad for the site and bad for the owner’s revenues, but we just don’t do enough in enough places and on enough pages on the site to engage them, inform them, be nice to them and reward them. See my answer to jay and telemoxie to cover the rest.

Steve Alker
Xspirt

Jay 2 – in economist terms that’s “points inflation” and as a Founder Member of the Adam Smith Institute (We are 30 this year!) I can no more endorse “Unsound Points” than I can endorse “Unsound Money”!

I’ll lend you some books Friedrich von Hayek and Milton Friedman if you want!!!

Steve
Xspirt

Interbox – another brilliant idea which should be splashed all over the site and in our PR. For 25 points someone will take a look – you might get lucky but that’s the rule.

For 500 we could have an automated system which sends out a personal request for help to the top 1000 with a note of lesser urgency to the top 100 and we should advertise that we do it. For 1000 points or more or the payment of the urgent fee perhaps the same to the top 100 with a less urgent note to the top 1000.

After all we are not mandated to have to do anything but what a marketing message that would send out to the wider world.

Mgoodman 2 I feel that postings and threads should be allowed to branch in order to explore where the question takes us. It is if an abuse and a hijack if the interjection is irrelevant and self serving but we seem to cope with that rather well. I’m always taking discussions off on an odd tangent because I’m an sort of tangential guy, but I always apologize to the owner of the question.

As for not responding or not closing, yes that is bad etiquette and bad manners, but it is hard to see any workable sanctions. I presume that Alan doesn’t want to force people to resign because he gains asset value from the size of the subscriber base, but I do think that the direction this discussion is going is that there is a hell of a lot we could do to engage, encourage and reward people and coming back and closing could become part of that process.

Steve Alker
Xspirt

Interbox – Not much to say there as I almost totally agree. Maybe we should be further engaging questioners to fulfill their role rather than just sending them reminder emails. There’s nothing wrong in principal in rewarding a question poster who puts in detailed and thoughtful responses. Treat them well and they will come back later with a further question. Surely the aim of the owners must be to so enthuse people that they sign up for a pro-package?

Oh, and apart from me, Randall and a dozen others in the top 25 cut the cynicism in your answers unless the questioner is clearly trying it on!! Humor is great but not everyone is good at it without belittling the person or putting them down.

Mgoodman 3: Ariely’s thesis only works where hard cash is exchange. When the items of the menu are free or but still priced people order what they want. Unless we find a real meaningful way to give real world value to the points, then it’s not going to work.

I’ve just thought of a reward beyond points which would give points more value and encourage people to return to both their questions and the forum. Make some of them stars for 5 minutes with either an invitation to contribute a very short article on their subject (Sort of Experts Jottings) or display a member produced 45 second video.

We might also think of giving some their 15 minutes by going back to the regular interviews but not just with the august and expert – shorter ones which hit some point relative to their contributions. Warhol would be proud!

Steve Alker
Xspirt

Juliet – that is both clever and hilarious. Some are frugal with their points because they come from a country or a background where frugality is the norm and we are a valuable resource which they want to keep on coming back to. We neither want to alienate these people or belittle them because they could become very active members if we show them how – I’m back to engagement again.

Stopping Jay is probably impossible because he’d just answer everything twice, leaving even less for the rest of us. There may be a bit of an us and them argument over the top experts and the humble ranks but this is illusory and would become irrelevant if we engaged with questioners more deeply and more often. I mean, if I was a newcomer and got a greeting and an answer from 10 of the top 100 experts I’d be pretty pleased about it and tell all my pals in the office.

The problem is that for them to be pleased we need to get MP management to blow our trumpets a bit harder and make it clear in their rules, “Ask a question page”, PR, advertising, blogs and social media that here is a place where you might get difficult marketing questions answered by some of the worlds top experts who are at the top of their game.

I wouldn’t object to that – you are already a superb door opener and offering me further publicity for the services I provide to your members probably won’t do my quote book any harm!

Steve Alker
Xspirt

Telemoxie 2

I think that posters should get visible credit for pointing out that the questioner is asking the wrong question and that what they should be addressing is “---“ along with an explanation of why it is so.

Steve
Xspirt

Harry – well, that’s my view and I’ve tested the thesis by offering a huge number of points to encourage people to answer a clearly deranged question. It doesn’t work. One member in the past offered about 10,000 points for answers to a complex and critical question and from the number of answers, he either canvassed responses or most likely the existence of question spread virally in our membership. It was also a taxing and interesting question with a lot of facets and people were discussing it member to member off site.

In fact, I think that MP’s should engage with and enable their experts much more. We need something like an experts net which is something newcomers could aspire to such that at the click of a button on the experts page we could notify a number of pals as to the existence of an interesting question in their field or ask them what the cricket score is. Not only would be a powerful incentive to contribute and to return to the site but it would also make me feel very important, which is a good thing!

Come on, we’ve got the technology and the intellect to effect some of these things, so why not do a few of them? They would mostly cost nothing or peanuts.

As for the viral thing - our contributors virtually invented it so why don't we use it within the membership as well as in the wider world - or are we actually all shirt and no trousers and not very good at it?

Steve Alker
Xspirt

Thanks again - I’ll close this out on Tuesday in case anyone wants to violently disgree with my latest points and thanks again for your patience for when I was ill.

Steve

Thanks again - I’ll close this out on Tuesday in case anyone wants to violently disgree with my latest points and thanks again for your patience for when I was ill.

Steve